[jillybean]

Dealer: East Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ A ♥ A873 ♦ Q853 ♣ AJ42

West North East South

 -     -     1♣    1♦
 1♠    2♦    2♠    3♦
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Comments on the bidding please, I dont like conceling the 4♥.

[jdonn]

Are you the 1♦ overcaller? This was a fairly easy pass over 1♣, then after they bid and raised spades you could double for takeout to show your hand.

[han]

Yes, clear pass of 1C.

[skjaeran]

Obviously this was the south hand, since it's not possible from the auction that it could be any of the other three.

Agree with Josh and Han that this is an easy pass. If I for some odd reason HAD to bid over 1♣ I'd reluctantly chose 1NT - not that I'd recomend it at all, but it's a better alternative than 1♦ on that motheaten 4-bagger.

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Sep 6 2007, 01:10 PM, said:

Are you the 1♦ overcaller? This was a fairly easy pass over 1♣, then after they bid and raised spades you could double for takeout to show your hand.

Bah. Balanced schmalanced, I bid 1NT.

A 10 or two would make that decision a lot more popular, though.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Sep 6 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 6 2007, 01:10 PM, said:

Are you the 1♦ overcaller? This was a fairly easy pass over 1♣, then after they bid and raised spades you could double for takeout to show your hand.

Bah. Balanced schmalanced, I bid 1NT.

A 10 or two would make that decision a lot more popular, though.

Not only balanced shmalanced. Not good enough shmot good enough. Calling this a below average 15 is generous if anything.

[kenrexford]

1NT for me. Much more to gain than to lose, IMO.

If partner dumps me in spades, I'm OK with that.

I'm not afraid of a white-on-red double, and I'm not expecting partner to blast some white flier game.

[jillybean]

Yes sorry, Im south and bid 1♦

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Sep 6 2007, 01:43 PM, said:

Calling this a below average 15 is generous if anything.

Interesting. Most people think I undervalue aces.

I like overcalling 1 of a minor with 1NT. Really, really, really like it. We have all sorts of complex bids to find a good contract or a good game over it, while it ruins gentle bidding by the opponents. However, that may just be the level I play at. Maybe once I get to the upper strata the opponents will have no trouble stopping at 2 spades when it's right.

[kenrexford]

This has a clear 15 HCP's. Doing the 3.33-thing, you get to an adjustment up of +1 and almost +2, for 16-17 actual trick-taking ability. Against that is the obvious devaluation of the stiff Ace, but that stiff might be an asset in any of three lausible suit contracts.

What about strategy?

Worst case, you declare spades. I can live with that. Alternatively, you may preempt spade contracts for the opponents, you may be able to better find a heart or diamond contract that is VERY good, and a 1NT overcall is hands-down the best way to find what may be a lucrative club contract.

And, you are white-on-red. This is great stuff.

[helene_t]

I prefer pass but 1♦ is not terrible I think. The hand is too weak for 1NT.

After 2♠ you must double. Bidding a bad 4-card twice is worse than bidding is once.

[mike777]

Prefer 1H overcall, yes not a great suit, rather than pass and have to back in later, possibly at the 3 level.

Also I do have some shape, 15 hcp and I am at fav vul for my overcall so partner should not expect a full opening hand here.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Sep 6 2007, 04:17 PM, said:

I prefer pass but 1♦ is not terrible I think. The hand is too weak for 1NT.

After 2♠ you must double. Bidding a bad 4-card twice is worse than bidding is once.

Gross.

This hand started as being too weak for a paltry 1NT overcall, and now you're going to make a game try across a simple raise?

Or maybe the X there is weaker than I'm used to. How would you have bid this with a 1-4-5-3 18 count?

[mikeh]

The reason this is a below average 15 count (which it is in my view) has nothing to do with the number of Aces.

It is below average because:

1. The honours do not combine: Queens should be promoted when combined with other honours, demoted when not.

2. The stiff A of spades is grossly over-valued due to its being singleton...consider Qxxx opposite Ax and Qxxx opposite stiff Ace, and you, on play need two tricks from the suit... how do you rate your chances.... any difference observable to you?

3. The stiff spade, even tho it is the Ace, will mislead partner, often fatally, in terms of competing in spades

4. 4441 hands are (deservedly) notorious for playing beneath their apparent weight.

I notice that almost all intermediate players, and many advanced players, seem to feel that they HAVE to overcall (or double) whenever they hold an opening hand. This is a terrible way to play the game. The Pass card is the most under-utilized bidding card in the game, by a mile.

I suspect that part of this is due to the quality of opposition they encounter... playing weak opponents allows one to get away with awful bidding, and engenders a false sense of understanding the game. Start bidding 1N on these hands against real opps, and you may do ok on some hands, but you are going to get destroyed on others (not to mention the destruction you wreak on partner when he sees your hand in some spade contract)

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Sep 6 2007, 04:48 PM, said:

It is below average because:

1. The honours do not combine: Queens should be promoted when combined with other honours, demoted when not.

2. The stiff A of spades is grossly over-valued due to its being singleton...consider Qxxx opposite Ax and Qxxx opposite stiff Ace, and you, on play need two tricks from the suit... how do you rate your chances.... any difference observable to you?

3. The stiff spade, even tho it is the Ace, will mislead partner, often fatally, in terms of competing in spades

4. 4441 hands are (deservedly) notorious for playing beneath their apparent weight.

5. Awful spot cards.

[mike777]

considering we would overcall at fav vul on a decent 4 card H suit and very little outside, I felt my hcp compensates for the lack of heart spots.

In other words some people overcall on 7 or 8 hcp and only 4 hearts here.

though I do love to hear people are not against using the pass card even with 14 hcp.

[gwnn]

It's a good idea to bid on odr (offense-defense ratio), not hcp (x AKJT xxx xxxxx is a much more offensive hand than this one). Make the hand a little better and it's an OK 1NT overcall, but like this pass is perfectly normal.

[pbleighton]

1H in the partnership which permits it, 1NT otherwise, though passing is close in that case.

Peter

[jtfanclub]

Why am I still debating this? I mean, I admit that it's marginal, and I might not do it against stronger opponents.

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1. The honours do not combine: Queens should be promoted when combined with other honours, demoted when not.

Well, sure. But they didn't open a diamond, they opened a club. I have AJxx sitting over opener. That's a nice combo to have, especially since if I take the contract at 1NT that's the most likely lead.

Quote

2. The stiff A of spades is grossly over-valued due to its being singleton...consider Qxxx opposite Ax and Qxxx opposite stiff Ace, and you, on play need two tricks from the suit... how do you rate your chances.... any difference observable to you?

Sure, in one case they have 7 cards that'll end up being discards when I don't play spades, and in the other they have 8. If I have A across Qxxx, that's only 5 of our cards. I have 3 other suits to develop. I don't know what the odds are for actually needing to play the spades myself, but it seems slim. If they're going to end up trying to develop spades, I don't see a big difference here.

Quote

3. The stiff spade, even tho it is the Ace, will mislead partner, often fatally, in terms of competing in spades

Eh. Sometimes xx is better, sometimes A singleton is better. I think it's actually more likely to mislead partner in terms of competing in hearts.

Quote

4. 4441 hands are (deservedly) notorious for playing beneath their apparent weight.

True, but I'm not adding points for distribution, either via Goren or LTC. I don't think this hand is better than the same hand with a small spade instead of a small diamond. I just don't think it's worse.

For #5, the missing spot cards? Can't argue with that one. Or #6, it's IMPs- it's a much better bid in MPs.

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I notice that almost all intermediate players, and many advanced players, seem to feel that they HAVE to overcall (or double) whenever they hold an opening hand.

True. You plan to sit this one out? 1♣-P-1NT-P-P-? 1♣-P-1♠-P-2♠-?

If I had a point less, if I had fewer controls and more quacks, sure, I'd pass both of those.

But if I'm coming in, I want to come in NOW.

1. My methods are much stronger (especially for finding game) when we overcall 1NT than when we do some second round 'do something partner' X. Game is very possible here, but I'm not going to find if I wait until I'm Xing 2♠.

2. 1NT over 1♣ has a much stronger pre-emptive effect than waiting. They may miss game or a fit as a result. We're removing almost a full level of bidding here, and opener has shown very little about his hand. It's not like bidding 1NT over 1♥.

3. It's very possible that I can shut the opponents out at the 1NT or 2 level if I call now, while if I wait we're almost certain to be competing to the three level.

4. Defense. Wow, do I have defense. God help me if my partner sacrifices over an unmakable bid because he couldn't imagine that I had 3 defensive tricks.

5. If partner does have 5+ spades, he's probably going to say them anyways. Suppose the auction goes, say....

1♣-P-1♦-1♠-2♦.

Maybe you have a great bid to show your hand now. I sure don't. How do you tell partner that you want to be in 3NT if he has a full 10 hcp overcall, but even 2♠ is too high if he was just putting in a free lead director across a passed hand?

I dunno. This isn't something I feel strongly about.

Quote

(not to mention the destruction you wreak on partner when he sees your hand in some spade contract)

Oh, if you wouldn't bid 1NT with the same hand with the QJTx of diamonds instead of Qxxx, well, then it's moot. You don't overcall 1NT with 4441 and a singleton ace, then you don't, and that's final. Making a bid like this isn't worth violating partnership harmony.

But if you do overcall 1NT with a singleton honor, and I think most people do, then this isn't a question of partnership trust. I don't think your partner's going to go nuts because it might be a hair too weak, especially in a spade contract.