[Ant590]

Hi,

In a non-2/1GF system, what do people play

a ) 1♥-2♣-3♥-4♣
b ) 1♠-2♥-3♥-3♠ as?

I'd especially like to hear from people familiar with an acol interpretation, but it's more the thought process and other systemic devices that facilitate the meanings you would use that I'm interested in.

FYI:
With regards to (a):
We play 1C-something-3NT as a long running suit with extras outside (compared to opening 3NT with long running suit with nothing outside). Currently we are playing 1M-something-3NT as this too, but I think this is a bad plan. I know of a pair who use 1M-something-3NT as a long non-solid suit and 1M-something-3H as a long semi-solid+ suit, and thus play 4C in (a) as a control bid... is this viable in your opinion?

[helene_t]

The first one depends on whether opener's 2♥ rebid would be forcing. In SAYC, it is forcing, so 3♥ shows a very good suit. Hence 4♣ is control showing. In Acol, I think 4♣ is natural.

The second one must always be control showing, I think, whether 3♥ was forcing or not.

[FrancesHinden]

a) In a modern Acol-based system 3H is game forcing after a 2/1, and 2H is non-forcing (historically 3H would also have been non-forcing but that is almost never played any more).

You can either play 4C as natural, or as a cue for hearts. This sequence is awkward, because both meanings are useful in the context of a system where 3H doesn't have to be a self-supporting suit. I think that 'standard', if there is such a thing, is for 4C to agree hearts.

In my regular non-FG-2/1 partnership, we play 1H - 2C - 3H - 3S as agreeing hearts, with both 4C and 4D natural (if opener has 4-6 in the majors he/she is expected to reverse into spades with any interest in playing a 4-4 spade fit, so 3S is not needed as a natural bid).

(We also play 1S - 2C - 3H as showing a 3S rebid, allowing responder to bid 3S to agree spades, and use 1S -2C - 3S as the replacement for the meaning we had given to 3H)

It's a good idea to decide if this is forcing or not, to start with, as three hearts is traditionally non-forcing. Our approach is that once we have found one 8+ card major suit fit, we don't need to find another one, so we play this as natural and forcing, typically 3-5 in the majors (might be 2-5 or 2-6). For RKCB or sign-off purposes, hearts are agreed, but either hand can pull hearts to spades if they think it looks a more solid fit.

Not playing a semi-forcing NT, the 3-card major limit raises will have done some other response on the first round, and have to be accommodation somehow:

[we play
1H - 1S - 2S - 3H as non-forcing, as an 8-card spade fit is not certain
1S - 2H - 3H - 3S as forcing (8-card heart fit known)
1M - 2m - 3m - 3M is non-forcing (3-card invite)
1C - 1D - 2D - 3C is forcing (diamond fit already known)
1D - 2C - 3C - 3D is forcing (club fit already known) ]

After 1H {something} it depends what the something is; after a 2/1 you have a forcing 3H rebid on a good suit; after 1H - 1S you don't have a forcing 3H bid.

There are various approaches, I'll tell you what we play, but this is related to playing 5-card majors.

{ 1H - 1S - 3NT = Acol-2 in hearts type hand, NF (a forcing hand has to open 2C or invent a SJS to a minor now). }

1H - 2C - 2NT = FG (3C enquiry, rebids 3D = 17-19, 3H 15-16 with 3 clubs, 3S 15-16 without 3 clubs, 3NT 15-16 3532 unstuiable for slam; if you play 4-card majors you could revamp the rebids as, say, 3D = 17-19, 3H = 5 hearts, 3S = 4-4 in clubs and hearts, 3NT = 4 hearts, not 4 clubs)

1H - 2C - 3NT = 15-bad 18, 2524 with an honour in each doubleton
1H - 2C - 3S = game forcing club raise, 1534 or 2524 unstuiable for 3NT rebid (1H-2C-3D diamond splinter, 1H-2C-4C 5-5 in hearts and clubs)

similarly after 1H - 2D.

1S - 2m - 2NT/3NT similarly. I've mentioned 1S-2m-3H/3S above.

and now related to the auction above
1S - 2H - 2NT = game forcing, either balanced, or 6 spades in a poor suit, or a heart raise
1S - 2H - 3H = NF
1S - 2H - 3S = FG good suit (new suit by responder is a cue bid)
1S - 2H - 4H = minimum(ish) opener 5-4-2-2
1S - 2H - 4minor = splinter, either minimum or going to drive the 5-level or higher
1S - 2H - 3NT = exactly 5233 18-19

1S - 2H - 2NT - 3C enquiry, opener's rebids: 3D = 17-19 with 3 hearts, 3H = other 3-card heart support (3S asks, then 3NT = 15-16, 4C = 5314, 4D = 5341), 3S = 6 spades, 3NT = 15-17 5233, 4C/4D splinters, better than a minimum hand.

Responder doesn't have to enquire, but usually will because of the wide range of possible hands opposite.

Very strong 5314 hands bid 1S - 2H - 3C then raise hearts later, so via 2NT is limited.

[Cascade]

a ) 1♥-2♣-3♥-4♣

We play this one as natural and forcing. But we play a new suit 3♠/4♦ as cues for hearts.

b ) 1♠-2♥-3♥-3♠

Like Frances we have a philosophy of not worrying about a second major suit fit once one has been found so we play 3♠ is a slam try for hearts. Our actual agreement is that 3♠ is a mild slam try - 3NT, 4♣/♦ would be serious slam tries with a cue in the bid suit (3NT = spade cue). Of course you could play something similar and simpler with 3♠ just being a spade cue.

Wayne

[awm]

a )

Depends a lot on whether 2♥ would have been forcing. In an SAYC context, 2♥ is forcing (2/1 promises a rebid) and so 3♥ sets the suit and 4♣ is a cuebid.

b )

Elianna and I play 3♥ as forcing (again, 2/1 promises a rebid) but even if 3♥ was not forcing it doesn't make sense to simply "correct to spades" when you've already found a major suit fit in hearts. So in any case 3♠ is forcing and forward-going. There is some question as to whether this is showing a double fit or cuebidding in support of hearts; I normally play that it shows a double fit (but bidding four-minor would be cuebid).