[jim420]

Your systematic bidding got ruined by a WJO by your LHO, and partner passed.

You, however, are looking at this hand...

Scoring: IMP

W N E S
- 1♦ P 1♥
3♣ P P ?

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What's ur action now?

[pbleighton]

3NT. Could easily be wrong, but when in doubt...

Peter

[hrothgar]

The original 1♥ response seems obvious.

This hand is a great example why preempts suck. I think that you have two reasonable choices:

1. Bid 3♦ (Partner doesn't have Heart support, so he pretty much promises 4+ Diamonds)

2. Bid 3N

I think that 3♦ is an accurate reflection of the playing strength of your hand, particularly with a Club opening lead going through you.

3NT is a slight overbid, but it does show your stopper. Opposite a sound opener, this could very well be the winning call. Even so, I am worried about being able to cahs 9 tricks before the opponents regain the lead. Mark me down for a conservative 3♦

[cherdano]

pbleighton, on Aug 31 2007, 09:12 AM, said:

3NT. Could easily be wrong, but when in doubt...

When in doubt, you can show doubt by doubling and then bidding 3N unless partner's bid tells you to do otherwise (3H)...

I really think double is mandatory here, if partner passes you can start celebrations, and every other bid will help you place the contract, even if he bids 3S and you bid 3N over that he might be able to correct to 4H when it is right (as you didn't 3N right away).

[pbleighton]

Quote

I really think double is mandatory here

I wouldn't consider double here, for me it promises 4 spades. If pd has 4S and more than minmum he will bid 4S.

Obviously you have a different agreement.

Peter

[FrancesHinden]

This is not an easy hand to bid, and as you say it's why they pre-empt. I don't think there is one clearly correct answer, although from your list of options some are more sensible than others.

Unless partner is fond of very light openers, you have sufficient values to force to game. The problem is that any of 3NT, 4H or 5D might be the right contract. The other problem is that neither 3D nor 3H is forcing. I think the two most sensible options are:

3NT: guarantees we get to game, and protects the CK. The problem is that if partner doesn't have any help in clubs, it's unlikely that 3NT is the only making game. However, it makes life simple, which playing with a pick-up partner is always a good thing

Double, as long as you play this for take-out: this is what I would do with my regular partners, but it does relay on good agreements about the susbequent auction. If partner bids 3H over the double, I will bid 4H. If partner bids 3S, I bid 3NT which implies I was interested in alternative contracts (so with, say, a 4261 or 4351 partner can pull 3NT, which he won't do over an immediate 3NT bid). If partner bids 3D I bid 3H, as a 5-2 heart fit might play very well; I hope over that he might bid 3S on some uncertain 3-1-6-3, say, and I can bid 3NT again suggesting some doubt. If partner passes 3Cx I am a little worried about my 4-card diamond support, but it might be the best spot.

[skjaeran]

pbleighton, on Aug 31 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

Quote

I really think double is mandatory here

I wouldn't consider double here, for me it promises 4 spades. If pd has 4S and more than minmum he will bid 4S.

Obviously you have a different agreement.

Peter

What would 3♠ mean to you then (over 3♣ p p)?

[pclayton]

FrancesHinden, on Aug 31 2007, 08:01 AM, said:

This is not an easy hand to bid, and as you say it's why they pre-empt. I don't think there is one clearly correct answer, although from your list of options some are more sensible than others.

Unless partner is fond of very light openers, you have sufficient values to force to game. The problem is that any of 3NT, 4H or 5D might be the right contract. The other problem is that neither 3D nor 3H is forcing. I think the two most sensible options are:

3NT: guarantees we get to game, and protects the CK. The problem is that if partner doesn't have any help in clubs, it's unlikely that 3NT is the only making game. However, it makes life simple, which playing with a pick-up partner is always a good thing

Double, as long as you play this for take-out: this is what I would do with my regular partners, but it does relay on good agreements about the susbequent auction. If partner bids 3H over the double, I will bid 4H. If partner bids 3S, I bid 3NT which implies I was interested in alternative contracts (so with, say, a 4261 or 4351 partner can pull 3NT, which he won't do over an immediate 3NT bid). If partner bids 3D I bid 3H, as a 5-2 heart fit might play very well; I hope over that he might bid 3S on some uncertain 3-1-6-3, say, and I can bid 3NT again suggesting some doubt. If partner passes 3Cx I am a little worried about my 4-card diamond support, but it might be the best spot.

Agree. Doubles in this situation do not promise classic shapes like 4=5=3=1.

[helene_t]

Dbl is clear. 3NT can wait, p won't bypass 3NT.

[jdonn]

I don't think there is any bid but double, although 3NT comes closest. You follow with 3NT unless partner goes to hearts, but you have to give him the chance to do so. If he passed I would be thrilled even with the diamond support, as he would be a mortal lock to have short hearts as he is pretty marked with length in every other suit.

I have a personal opinion that people downgrade cards like the club king here way too much. I think the combination of chances that partner has the ace, partner has the queen, or even that the ace is onside add up to over half the time. I see a number of missed games after an overcall when the overcaller's RHO downgrades a king only to find their partner with the ace.

[han]

I think this is a clear double (when playing with an advanced partner).

[whereagles]

A practical 3NT for me. I don't like dbl unless you have very clear agreements on what it means here.

[BebopKid]

I voted for 3D, my hand isn't strong enough to force a 3NT and the club bidder is sitting behind me so my Kx is almost worthless.

My partner should have at least 4 diamonds with the auction.

[1eyedjack]

To those who double ...
Is that game forcing? If it is, fine, with 4 card Spade suit partner can just bid 3S regardless of strength, leaving open the option of 3NT in the absence of a Spade fit.
If it is not game forcing, what does partner do with 4 Spades and a non-minimum opener? He cannot bid 3S, for fear of its being passed. He cannot bid 3NT because (say) he has inadequate Clubs (and anyway, it would conceal a Spade fit).

[skjaeran]

1eyedjack, on Sep 1 2007, 11:22 PM, said:

To those who double ...
Is that game forcing? If it is, fine, with 4 card Spade suit partner can just bid 3S regardless of strength, leaving open the option of 3NT in the absence of a Spade fit.
If it is not game forcing, what does partner do with 4 Spades and a non-minimum opener? He cannot bid 3S, for fear of its being passed. He cannot bid 3NT because (say) he has inadequate Clubs (and anyway, it would conceal a Spade fit).

It isn't GF. (Hands to weak to GF will of course have 4c♠.) So partner with a minimum with 4c♠ will rebid 3♠, which you can correct to 3NT with the actual hand. Partner will interpret this as a non-obvious 3NT - that is, he's can pull. If partner jumps to 4♠ over double you can likewise correct to 5♦.

[SoTired]

dbl. I don't understand 3D. It is non-forcing. Have I miscounted? Doesn't this hand have 13 hcp? 2nd choice is 3N. 4D has some appeal, but we might have 2 club losers off the top.

[jdeegan]

3NT for me based on Hamman's rule. LHO knew he was red on white when he bid 3♣. My club holding bothers me if we end up defending. It only took a few seconds to come up with this unremarkable example hand:

Scoring: IMP

1♦-P-1♥-3♣
P-P-Dbl-P
P-P-P

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3NT makes with the expected club lead. 3♣ doubled should be beat one trick, however, any defensive slip up and we are -670. The case for doubling showing cards and a tolerance for defending rests on the possibility that North has three card heart support - a decent enough reason to make the bid - but I just like the idea of simplifying this auction.

[Codo]

skaeran, on Sep 2 2007, 06:39 AM, said:

1eyedjack, on Sep 1 2007, 11:22 PM, said:

To those who double ...
Is that game forcing?  If it is, fine, with 4 card Spade suit partner can just bid 3S regardless of strength, leaving open the option of 3NT in the absence of a Spade fit.
If it is not game forcing, what does partner do with 4 Spades and a non-minimum opener? He cannot bid 3S, for fear of its being passed.  He cannot bid 3NT because (say) he has inadequate Clubs (and anyway, it would conceal a Spade fit).

It isn't GF. (Hands to weak to GF will of course have 4c♠.) So partner with a minimum with 4c♠ will rebid 3♠, which you can correct to 3NT with the actual hand. Partner will interpret this as a non-obvious 3NT - that is, he's can pull. If partner jumps to 4♠ over double you can likewise correct to 5♦.

What hand should opener hold which passed 3 Club and bids 4 Spade now? I cannot construct one.

So double is cristalclear.

And in the given hand 3 NT makes from both sides.

[Gerben42]

Luckily it is obvious for North NOT to pass 3♣x on Q84.

[jim420]

Oops I forgot to post the hand again...

Scoring: IMP

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3NT, 4♥ and 5♦ makes, but so does 3♣W