[nilbes]

These last couple of months I have seen more and more restricted tournaments.Either they are private clubs or to certain skill levels, countries,languages, systems and whatever you can think of........ This gives a very limited choice of tournaments to players like me who like to play tournaments dont belong to many of those clubs and have a limited time to play. Well this may actually be another discussion topic but what I really want to emphasize is the use of psychic in tournaments. Why not restrict that????
Here you are usually with a partner you play the first time with and the opps. use a psychic bid. till you know what!s going on you are in the middle of the hand and its too late :-)))
One can arguee that these bids also fool the partner of the bidder but what the heck. I just don't like it. Bridge is such a wonderfull game with so many conventions and systems from which you can bid your hand and find the optimum contract why go and use psychic????? What kind of satisfaction does it give to the user of it???? I am really puzzled there.....
Would like your opinions about it, how you deal with them and if these bids should be banned from tournaments? In fact in many official tournaments they are and so the better.....

[inquiry]

Hi Nilbes,

You raise two issues. The first is the issue of restricted tournements. Until recently it wasn't possible to restrict entry (well, there was a list of names that could be restricted by TD a long time ago when they had to use an exclusive webpage to set them up rahter than the client software). Then people became able to restrict them to private club. Then the "locks" were added to show that a tourney had restrictions, along with a host of new ways to restict the tourneys.

What you may not be aware of is that the VAST majority of tournments are restricted to exclude "enemies of the host". This is basically no restriction at all. That is, while the lock appears on the tourney, if you have not specfically been marked as an enemy by the tourney host you can sign up and play without a problem. Since it is the rare TD that will have more than a handfull of enemies out of the 100,000+ registered users, this is not a problem for the general user, and keeps players who cause problems for the TD from signing up and playing. So don't assume just because there is a lock on a tournement that you are not free to join it. Point at the tourney and see what the restriction actually is.

Your second point. There are a lot of people who agree with you about psyching. But things like psyching and false-carding (on defense and by declarer) and other bluffs are part of the game. The best thing to do is when an opponent psyches against you is to log the psyche with the TD. Someone who goes around psyching all the time, espeically if their partner always "Catches" the psyche, probably needs to be sanctioned or at least talked to by the TD. But to outright ban psyches is totally wrong in my opinion. On the other hand, there are enough TD and opportunities for tournments, it should be able to establish tournments where one of the rules of that tournment (but certainly not ALL tournments) would be "no psyches allowed". Of course, you then get into the grey zone of is a third seat NV opening bid on 10HCP a psyche or not??? How about on 9 points?

Ben

[nilbes]

Thank you Ben for the information about restricted tournaments especially the ''enemy'' part found that always curious :-))))
BUT about the false carding during play and psychic bids.... I dont think we can lump them into same category. Is standard procedure for one of the opps with the stronger hand to false card and the weak opp not to do so. An experienced declarer usually sees through that and actually no one is decieved. 3rd seay openings??? well may be a gray zone but most systems define them opps can ask if there is a tendency to open weak in 3rd.seat can't they so not a gray zone actually.......
nilbes

[hrothgar]

>Bridge is such a wonderfull game with so many conventions and
>systems from which you can bid your hand and find the optimum
>contract why go and use psychic????? What kind of satisfaction does
>it give to the user of it???? I am really puzzled there.....

As usual, I have a somewhat extreme position here. I don't believe that psychic bids actually exist. Rather, a "psyche" is an example of a mixed strategy equilibrium. Personally, I believe that these types of bids improve the game enormously by increasing the intellectual challenge.

>Would like your opinions about it, how you deal with them and if
>these bids should be banned from tournaments? In fact in many
>official tournaments they are and so the better.....

I would be most interested to see examples of "official" tournaments that ban pysches. The right to pysche is enshrined in the Laws of Bridge. I am aware of some misguided attempts by local organizers to ban psyches in "official" tournaments. As I recall, such a rule was implemented in Akron, Ohio. The rule was promptly reversed when he National Organization became aware of it.

[inquiry]

nilbes, on Feb 13 2004, 09:01 AM, said:

BUT about the false carding during play and psychic bids.... I dont think we can lump them into same category. Is standard procedure for one of the opps with the stronger hand to false card and the weak opp not to do so. An experienced declarer usually sees through that and actually no one is decieved. 3rd seay openings??? well may be a gray zone but most systems define them opps can ask if there is a tendency to open weak in 3rd.seat can't they so not a gray zone actually.......
nilbes

Grey zone first... if you think opening light is not a grey zone, you have missed some recent post in this thread (by grey zone, I mean one in which reasonable people can disagree on rather a light third seat opening bid is a psyche or if it is a tatical bid)....

Now as for falsecard versus psyche. Both are deliberate deceptive manuevers to deceive your opponents. A psyche can be a bid with a very weak hand (pretending to be strong), or a sandbagging bid with a strong hand (to make them think you are not as strong as you actually are), or something like a shortness showing bid (like a splinter) when you are not actually short in that suit, to name a few... But the intention is to create an impression in your opponents mind that your hand is something other than what it is. A falsecard does the same thing. I have had xx opposite J9 in 3NT and lead this up to the J9 myself... when they could take at least five in this suit. Don't do this often of course, and when it fails it fails miserably, but by leading the suit I try to give the impression I am strong in this suit and I want to try to establish it, and when it works (situation where I will have to lose a trick somewhere else first), it is wonderful. And what about a declarer false-card like this and many others? There is no chance to fool partner, because you cleverly got him to be le mort (dead dummy)... so along as when you lead a low from xx to J9 and he doesn't type a string of ????????????? on-line at your play (and if he does, you can help him become dead)... you can only fool (effectively) the opponents. Is that something that should be made illegal (the play not the question marks)?

But in both cases (bid versus play), the main issue to hoodwink, trick, decieve opponents. Sometimes, in fairly standard situations, a falsecard by you to fool your opponents is the only CHANCE to make your contract or defeat your opponents contract. Likewise, there are situations where the only chance for your side is to try to fool the opponents with a psyche. Let me give but one example....

You hold

Scoring: IMP

3♦-PASS-?

---

Your partner opens if first seat a non-vulnerable preempt of 3♦. Arn't you fairly sure the opponents can make a vul 4 of a major if not 6? Do you think you will keep them out of the auction if you bid 4♦ or 5♦? I would think that a psyche here is mandatory. I believe most experts will bid 3NT or maybe 3 of a major. The 3NT bid has a fair chance to work if their HCP are roughly equally divided, and if not, you can alway bid 5♦ later (then everyone will know your 3NT was a psyche). This is just good bridge, and to outlaw this makes no sense.

Ben

[Free]

About psychs and falsecards. Imo they are the exact same mechanism, but for some reason, nobody cares about falsecards and a lot of people care about a psych. If your bid shows a 4 card and you seem not to have it, some people get angry, their entire play or defense is ruined, but if you falsecard and their contract is beaten because of it, nobody will call a director! Actually, the real problem is that they base their line of play completely on opponents bidding and discarding.

I like to psych when I think it's necessary, and maybe I psych more than the average expert or whatever player. Anyway, I don't get satisfaction of fooling the opps, but I do get satisfaction when the psych works and we get a good score. I am however very nervous EVERY time I psych, so it's still no automatism. But the big advantage of psychic bidding from time to time is, that if your opps know you, they never know if you are realy showing your hand or if you're psyching again. So it makes it even harder on opps if they know you.

Anyway, I'd never forbid psychic bidding, because it takes some magic away from the game. If the bidding goes 1♥-Dbl-1♠-? you'll never try and find a ♠ fit in case the 1♠ bid was a psych. Now you might Double and get into trouble (as well as finding a ♠ fit). Also pass-pass-1NT-? is the 1NT opening real or extremely weak? If the possibility of a psych exists, it makes the bidding more interesting!

[mikestar]

I largely agree with Ben on this. In particular, a psychic is a very logical way to bid the hand he gave under these conditions--it's not the only way, however. With the example hand, I'd raise 3♦ to 6♦. I don't know whether or not they can make 6 of a major, let them guess. With the same trumps and no A♣ I jump to 7♦. Doesn't fool anybody, but sure doesn't leave them any room.

But in any case, this isn't the type of psychic that Iv'e found most players get upset about. Something like 1♠ on ♠void ♥Qxx ♦xxxx ♣Axxxxx first seat just to stir things up is the kind of things that make opponents see red.

Perhaps a particular tournament might have a rule barring psychic initial actions by each partenership, but no restrictons thereafter.

As a matter of strategy rather than law or ethics, I doubt that psyching at above the infrequent level really pays--there is too much cost in partnership harmony.

[lenze]

inquiry, on Feb 13 2004, 03:42 PM, said:

[
Your partner opens if first seat a non-vulnerable preempt of 3♦. Arn't you fairly sure the opponents can make a vul 4 of a major if not 6?  Do you think you will keep them out of the auction if you bid 4♦ or 5♦? I would think that a psyche here is mandatory. I believe most experts will bid 3NT or maybe 3 of a major.  The 3NT bid has a fair chance to work if their HCP are roughly equally divided, and if not, you can alway bid 5♦ later (then everyone will know your 3NT was a psyche). This is just good bridge, and to outlaw this makes no sense.

Ben

3 NT here is NOT a psyche. It is a tactical bid!!!

[keylime]

Isn't that the truth - my lovely pard has made like one-two psyches and never with me as partner. A lot of it is due to the nature of our partnership and a lot of it is the fear that we get it all wrong and go for a gigantic telephone number. Have we been victim of a psyche - yes, one time in Ft. Lauderdale. However we tend to expose psyches well for some reason. Maybe systemic, maybe just good hunches, who knows.

Furthermore, we really don't have a chance to psyche because of all the non-standard openings we have (here in ACBL land can't psyche a conventional opening). So it's by nature straight up and straight forward.

[inquiry]

lenze, on Feb 13 2004, 11:24 AM, said:

inquiry, on Feb 13 2004, 03:42 PM, said:

[
Your partner opens if first seat a non-vulnerable preempt of 3♦. Arn't you fairly sure the opponents can make a vul 4 of a major if not 6?  Do you think you will keep them out of the auction if you bid 4♦ or 5♦? I would think that a psyche here is mandatory. I believe most experts will bid 3NT or maybe 3 of a major.  The 3NT bid has a fair chance to work if their HCP are roughly equally divided, and if not, you can alway bid 5♦ later (then everyone will know your 3NT was a psyche). This is just good bridge, and to outlaw this makes no sense.

Ben

3 NT here is NOT a psyche. It is a tactical bid!!!

Lol

ok.. so now imagine a rule that says that tatical bids are allowed but psyches are not... here we have to decide... is 3NT a pcyhe or a tatical bid on the hand above. Is opening light in third seat, say with 8 points or 7 points a psyche or a tatical bid? Is a false splinter a psyche or a tatical bid.... what a can of worms, beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all...

Ben

[lenze]

[quote name='inquiry' date='Feb 13 2004, 05:30 PM'] [/QUOTE]
3 NT here is NOT a psyche. It is a tactical bid!!! [/QUOTE]
Lol

ok.. so now imagine a rule that says that tatical bids are allowed but psyches are not... here we have to decide... is 3NT a pcyhe or a tatical bid on the hand above. Is opening light in third seat, say with 8 points or 7 points a psyche or a tatical bid? Is a false splinter a psyche or a tatical bid.... what a can of worms, beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all...

Ben [/QUOTE]
There is a difference between a psyche and a tactical bid. When one psyches, he is placing the ball in the air with no idea of which side of the net it will come down on. When one, however, makes a tactical bid, he has a good idea of where the ball will land. In Inquiry's example hand, south can be reasonably sure the ball will land in 5 Diamonds

[hrothgar]

lenze, on Feb 13 2004, 07:41 PM, said:

>There is a difference between a pysche and a tactical bid. When
>one pysches, he is placing the ball in the air with no idea of which
>side of the net it will come down on. When one, however, makes a
>tactical bid, he has a good idea of where the ball will land.
>In Inquiry's example hand, south can be reasonably sure the ball will land in 5 >Diamonds

I fail to appreciate the utility in introducing this distinction. I know lots of players who psyche quite frequently. I don't know of anyone who does so "randomly". Rather, players who psyche do so in a deliberate attempt to achieve a specific end.

Most jurisdictions already have specific regulations regarding actions that are completely random. I see no reason to introduce an artifical distinction between a "psyche" and a "tactical bid" that merely serves to duplicate existing regulations.

[nilbes]

Well lol and lol now it has come down to differentiate between tactical bids and psychic ones..........
tell me then is this bid tactical or psychic:

1D-P-1H-P
2H-P-3NT-P
YOU HAVE TO LEAD FROM Kx-Kxxx-J-KQxxxx ?????????
unless you lead a heart the contract is cold because your RHO is void in hearts!!!!and dummy has only the ace once they knock out your spade K the contract is home.

[lenze]

nilbes, on Feb 13 2004, 06:30 PM, said:

Well lol and lol now it has come down to differentiate between tactical bids and psychic ones..........
tell me then is this bid tactical or psychic:

1D-P-1H-P
2H-P-3NT-P
YOU HAVE TO LEAD FROM  Kx-Kxxx-J-KQxxxx  ?????????
unless you lead a heart the contract is cold because your RHO is void in hearts!!!!and dummy has only the ace once they knock out your spade K the contract is home.

There really is a difference!!!

RHO's 1 Heart bid is clearly a psyche. He had no idea where the ball would land. He has no idea where the final contract should be placed. Also, his unlimited partner could easily raise him to 4 Hearts (or even 6). Also, his partner could correct 3NT to 4 Hearts. In fact, if his partner failed to correct to 4 Hearts holding Axxx of Hearts, it would easily be argued that he had fielded the pysche. It would then appear that RHO has psyched enough in the past to establish a pattern, and has therefore created an implied partnership understanding. This would be illegal under most bridge jurisdictions. Compare this with Inquiry's example. Here South's partner has preempted and is almost certain not to bid again. Also, south has a fairly accurate idea of who can make what. He also knows the correct strain for his side. He knows he is not going to sell out for less than 5 Diamonds, so his 3NT bid becomes tactical in an attempt to achieve the best result for his side.

[Cascade]

nilbes, on Feb 13 2004, 09:58 AM, said:

These last couple of months I have seen more and more restricted tournaments.Either they are private clubs or to certain skill levels, countries,languages, systems and whatever you can think of........ This gives a very limited choice of tournaments to players like me who like to play tournaments dont belong to many of those clubs and have a limited time to play. Well this may actually be another discussion topic but what I really want to emphasize is the use of psychic in tournaments. Why not restrict that????
Here you are usually with a partner you play the first time with and the opps. use a psychic bid. till you know what!s going on you are in the middle of the hand and its too late :-)))
One can arguee that these bids also fool the partner of the bidder but what the heck. I just don't like it. Bridge is such a wonderfull game with so many conventions and systems from which you can bid your hand and find the optimum contract why go and use psychic????? What kind of satisfaction does it give to the user of it???? I am really puzzled there.....
Would like your opinions about it, how you deal with them and if these bids should be banned from tournaments? In fact in many official tournaments they are and so the better.....

No official tournament can legitimately ban psychics.

Psychics are written into the laws of the game - L40A

"A player may make any call or play (including an intentionally misleading call — such as a psychic bid — or a call or play that departs from commonly accepted, or previously announced, use of a convention), without prior announcement, provided that such call or play is not based on a partnership understanding."

Being able to overwrite the laws of the game for an 'official' tournament is an absurd notion.

If not next we will have 'official' tournaments where you are allowed to revoke.

Wayne

[Cascade]

mikestar, on Feb 13 2004, 01:17 PM, said:

I largely agree with Ben on this. In particular, a psychic is a very logical way to bid the hand he gave under these conditions--it's not the only way, however. With the example hand, I'd raise 3♦ to 6♦. I don't know whether or not they can make 6 of a major, let them guess. With the same trumps and no A♣ I jump to 7♦. Doesn't fool anybody, but sure doesn't leave them any room.

But in any case, this isn't the type of psychic that Iv'e found most players get upset about. Something like 1♠ on ♠void ♥Qxx ♦xxxx ♣Axxxxx first seat just to stir things up is the kind of things that make opponents see red.

Perhaps a particular tournament might have a rule barring psychic initial actions by each partenership, but no restrictons thereafter.

As a matter of strategy rather than law or ethics, I doubt that psyching at above the infrequent level really pays--there is too much cost in partnership harmony.

I like the raise to 6♦. Well at least that style. I am always disappointed when I psyche and it turns out that I would probably have achieved the same result by a simple pre-empt.

I love to pre-empt and they often work at least as good as any clever manoeuvre.

Wayne

[Cascade]

lenze, on Feb 13 2004, 01:24 PM, said:

inquiry, on Feb 13 2004, 03:42 PM, said:

[
Your partner opens if first seat a non-vulnerable preempt of 3♦. Arn't you fairly sure the opponents can make a vul 4 of a major if not 6?  Do you think you will keep them out of the auction if you bid 4♦ or 5♦? I would think that a psyche here is mandatory. I believe most experts will bid 3NT or maybe 3 of a major.  The 3NT bid has a fair chance to work if their HCP are roughly equally divided, and if not, you can alway bid 5♦ later (then everyone will know your 3NT was a psyche). This is just good bridge, and to outlaw this makes no sense.

Ben

3 NT here is NOT a psyche. It is a tactical bid!!!

What does 3NT show?

How do you explain it to the opponents?

Do you alert?

Until we know this we cannot judge whether 3NT is a psychic bid - a gross misdescription or a tactical bid that is part of your system.

Wayne

[inquiry]

Cascade, on Feb 13 2004, 02:58 PM, said:

lenze, on Feb 13 2004, 01:24 PM, said:

What does 3NT show?

Desire to play 3NT.. in fact, I would love to play 3NT (undoubled of course). Now whether or not I anticipate making it is for me to know and everyone else to figure out.

Quote

Do you alert?

Sticky question. Self alerts on psychic bids... hmm. I have a partner who loves to psyche 3NT with fit and weak. I alert his bid since i know this tendency. I have made this bid maybe five times in my life. But with a wide variety of partners, so I doubt it has come to a point where my partner would necessarily alert knowing a tendency. And what if I alert this everytime and say soemthiong like I have psyched this 3NT in the past with junk hand and support. Now opponent balances and I have a good hand and I double and collect +1400... would he then say i cheated by alerting the fact that once every few years when the mood hits me I use this psych?

Quote

How do you explain it to the opponents?

In real world, partner makes this bid, and I alert the tendency that he pyches that bid from time to time. But rather it is real or pyche I am passing (I described my hand already).

Quote

Until we know this we cannot judge whether 3NT is a psychic bid - a gross misdescription or a tactical bid that is part of your system.

I think EVERYONE would consider this natural sounding bid as a psyche when weak. And it is the crueliest and safest psyche of all, your partner who preempted is not allowed to do something funny over this bid. He is going to do exactly what you want.. .and pass... what a good fellow... if only partners where always so cooperative with your psyches.

[lenze]

inquiry, on Feb 13 2004, 09:34 PM, said:

Cascade, on Feb 13 2004, 02:58 PM, said:

lenze, on Feb 13 2004, 01:24 PM, said:

What does 3NT show?

Desire to play 3NT.. in fact, I would love to play 3NT (undoubled of course). Now whether or not I anticipate making it is for me to know and everyone else to figure out.

Quote

Do you alert?

If I were north and were asked, I would reply, " He thinks he can make 3NT."

[lenze]

Quote

Do you alert?

NO!! The only alerts required are for your partnership agreements that are not standard. Your decision to bid 3NT has nothing to do with your partnership understandings.