[FrancesHinden]

Scoring: IMP

1♠ P 2NT 4♦
P 5♦ ?

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Playing 1/3 of the Eire open team at table 1, this little corker comes up as the last board of the day at about 2330 on Saturday night...

1♠ = 5+ spades, usually open 1S with 15-17 balanced.
2NT = FG spade raise (you are too strong for a void splinter in your style. You could bid 2C nat FG, but decide to do this instead as partner won't read you for such huge red suit controls if you take the trouble to bid the clubs first.)

Partner's pass of 4♦ is encouraging (double penalties, 4♠ no slam interest)

Now what?
And if partner signs off over it, what then?

(there were loads more. I have never seen so many slam bidding problems in one weekend. We even gained imps on some of them!)

[mike777]

I will start with 5H but may miss a grand.

[jtfanclub]

So what would 6 diamonds show on this auction?

[mike777]

jtfanclub, on Aug 20 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

So what would 6 diamonds show on this auction?

IF it promises this hand we have no problem to discuss.

[awm]

Definitely bidding to at least small slam here. If 5NT asks for trump quality then I like that bid. Otherwise will cuebid 5♥ and hope partner eventually gets the message that trumps are the issue.

[Echognome]

Agree with those that will drive to the small slam. Partner's pass over 4♦ is great news. Thus I will ask about trump quality if possible, otherwise 5♥, 6♣, etc.

[kenrexford]

What to do next depends upon your agreements.

That sounds like a useless and annoying answer, but it seems to be the only possible answer. I could guess, as you undoubtedly did, what partner might guess that you would guess that he would guess, but that seems silly and useless, unless you want praise for making a smart guess.

If you do not have any agreements, I have a small suggestion.

When the opponents jam an auction in the suit two-below (as here), use the intermediate bid (5♥) as a "Last Train" call, typically asking for help in the opponents' suit. You might even treat the "answers" as Lackwood-esque, if you really want to get sexy.

All that said, I'm abstaining from any further comment because the preconditions are ridiculous. 2NT, albeit explained, is silly with 4405 pattern. I refuse to suggest a reasonable call at your second bid after an absurd start with your first call.

Had you started 2♣, partner might have made a more intelligent bid after 4♦, or you might not have had even the 4♦ call for that matter, or the 5♦ call (establishing trumps gives them protection). Even if he passed (which gives some info) and the rest of the auction was identical, then any grand try by your would SCREAM the value of club honors to partner. What, he'd sign off after a grand try with all three top spades and the KQ of clubs?

[cherdano]

I would not stop short of small slam. If you can find out about AKQ of trumps by bidding 5N then that might be worth the risk of a club loser. Otherwise, I would pass for now and hopefully get to pull a double to 5H, and try once more with 6C over 5S.

I would have bid 2♣ instead of 2N but I still disagree with Ken, I think 2N worked much better. It would be very awkward to show the support at the 5-level now.

[han]

I agree with the general feeling of at least going to slam. Partner has shown interest, yet has not doubled for penalty and is missing A AK in the side suits. Surely partner has good trumps, but unfortunately I don't have the methods to find out whether they are good enough. Or do I?

I imagine that Frances plays 5NT as some kind of trump ask. If partner won't jump to 7 with 2 honors then I will use that. Otherwise I will cue 5H.

[mikeh]

Very annoying. I don't think cue-bidding my Aces helps, because partner will initially think I am looking for a side 1st round control, and he doesn't have one, so he has to sign off. Then I show my other Ace at the 6 level, and he thinks I'm looking for a diamond control!

And if I cue 6♦, maybe this inferentially denies a heart control!

And while I play graded responses to GSF, as I am sure Frances does, do they avoid grand opposite AKxxx Qx xx KQxx for example? My scheme doesn't: it differentiates which of the one honours we show at the 6 level, with length info as well: but 2/3 goes to 7♣.

I am going to bid 6♠. If partner is looking at AKQ of trump, maybe he will work out why I didn't make some intermediate bid.....

[han]

I changed plans. I will bid 5H, then over the expected 5S I will bid 6D, hopefully showing a first round diamond control. Hopefully partner with AKQ of trumps will figure out that I must have the club ace and bids 7S.

If I bid 6C instead of 6D then partner may bid 7S with the AK of trumps and the A of diamonds. Something similar cannot happen over 6D.

[cherdano]

Why is noone else using a forcing pass to show a stronger slam try? If we don't use it on this hand, we might as well give up on the method?

[jdonn]

I would pass then pull double to 5♥. I agree with people that I am at least going to 6 now.

[Codo]

I still have 5 NT as josephine in my script, so no problem with this hand.

Without this tool a forcing pass is clear.

[Fluffy]

I am going to 6 as well at least, but I think showing void and outside aces is just impossible.

I don't think we have enough for 2 cuebids, not even for pass and cue.

I don't like 5♥ because it doesn't solve the possible duplication in diamonds, what if partner bids 6♠?, we have no bid.

I think 6♦ is best, close to 6♠

[ulven]

I'll just punt 6S. Probably a good approximation of what we can make. The space is just not enough to get a useful cooperative auction going for the grand and I have no high spade honor (giving us a chance to pick up the queen offside).

They did jump overcall 4D and may have a void outside of spades, which is also a factor.

I'm all for science but sometimes you have to let it go. For me, this is one of those occasions.

[benlessard]

6D showing a void for me with no side suit control problems. (If i forcing pass ... what will i do if partner bid 6♠ ?) My follow up is if partner bid 6♠ or 6♥ i will stop in 6♠.

I can`t find no word strong enough to tell you how much i disagree with the 2nt bid. Bypassing a suit like AJTxx (when playing 2/1 or similar) is something ive stop doing the first year ive learned bridge


Congrats on your tournament win !

[Gerben42]

5♥, cuebid. Doesn't show the ♦-void (yet) though, but a direct 6♦ I don't know...

[FrancesHinden]

I don't know what the winning answer is on this hand. I think this is possibly another "f*** it" and bid a grand hand, although no-one has suggested it: after all, what can partner possibly have to encourage over 4D if not good trumps? It's clear she has nothing wasted in diamonds and is hardly overflowing with rounded suit controls.

While we play 5NT as a trump ask, the responses differentiate the 0 top honours, the A/K, or the Q, and force grand opposite two top honours. So it doesn't help us here.

Anyway, my partner had this hand and bid 5H over 5D, followed by 6D over my (not unexpected) 5S. Certainly I also thought this showed the CA by inference, but I wasn't at all certain that good trumps was _all_ partner needed. Maybe pass-then-6D is even stronger... while pass-then-pull is traditionally reserved to show a good hand, things can get a bit murky if partner doesn't double.

Partner has AKQxxx Q10xx xx x. This was flat in 1010 on a similar auction at the other table (Hanlon/McGann). I'm confident that both tables would have bid it pretty easily given a free run.

I note three complaints (two of them strong ones) about the lack of a 2C call on the first round. As it happens, it was my partner held this hand and bid 2NT but he certainly considered 2C.

While I don't object to a 2C call (certainly nothing like as strongly as a couple of people have objected to a 2NT call) I think 2NT is correct, at least in our methods - and probably in most 2/1 style methods, although we play rather more kit than most. Here's why:

Most importantly, the reason given for bidding the clubs is so that partner knows that the K/Q of clubs are 'gold'. The problem is, that in fact they aren't.... if we do a 2/1 then show primary spade support partner is supposed to work out that we are seriously interested in the club suit. Partner will dislike holding low cards in clubs, even a singleton (hard to set the suit up) and think that a holding such as Qx is very good. But with 1st and 2nd round controls in the red suits, partner's club holding is actually pretty irrelevant for small slam purposes. Opposite AKxxxx xx xxx xx 6S is perfectly playable; in fact it's not actually that much better if partner has the CQ in addition. What we care about for small slam is partner's spade holding, and how much she has wasted in diamonds. We don't want to focus attention on the club suit.

In fact the HQ is a better card than the CQ .. AKQxxx Qx xxx xx is a perfectly good grand (particularly if we have the 8 of spades in hand); AKQxxx xx xxx Qx is on a finesse. And if we do a 2/1 in clubs partner will prefer the second hand.

So, in summary, high cards in hearts are likely to be at least as useful as high cards in clubs. I want partner focussing on both rounded suits.

Holding KQxx Ax xx AQ10xx 2C is fine, because now partner can evaluate correctly.
Holding J109x Ax xx AKQxx 2C is pointless.

Reasoned debate welcome. But please read why I believe bypassing AJ10xx is right on this hand before you convince me that I'm wrong!

[kenrexford]

Why I Like 2♣ Part I -- Uncontested Auctions

The one glaring point that I would make is that one would not normally cater calls to a 4♦...5♦ interference. Sure, it is possible, and it is a concern. However, an uncontested auction is also quite possible.

For me, at least, the uncontested auction is greatly enhanced if Responder bids 2♣. An extremely likely occurrence, when Responder has a void in diamonds, is that Opener will, in fact, be able to bid 2♦, or at least 2♥. Either will allow me, at least in my methods, to now bid 2♠.

The 2♣ call by me will enable partner to cue slow club honors. As I lack any spade top honors, I'll expect partner to be able to bypass 2NT (a denial cue in my methods -- would deny KQ+ in spade honors) to cue 3♣ with the club Queen or King. If Opener bid 2♦ at rebid, I'd now cue 3♥. Partner might cue 3♠ when relevant grand considerations are there (all three top spades), and I'd cue 3NT.

At this point, if partner held KQ in clubs, he'd cue 4♣, and I'd know what was up -- a lay-down grand. If not, I could still check on the club suit (King or Queen) when he bids anything, as 5♣ (a suit I bid) asks keycard, but with the keys being the King and Queen of clubs (spades already being known).

Back up. If partner lacks any club cards, he'd bypass 3♣ to do something. Later, then, he could cue club to show the stiff. That's OK also. Maybe his alternative cues tell me something as well. Or, he bypasses 4♣ to deny a stiff. Whatever.

The point, initially, is that a 2♣ call starts tremendous auctions when the auction is uncontested. 2NT is a mess as an alternative.

Part II -- Increased Likelihood of Contested Auction

A somewhat minor point, perhaps. People overcall 1M-P-2NT on air, as they should. It is the achille's ankle of Jacoby 2NT that parallels the Precision 1♣ interference. I've seen KJxx and out. The known nine-fit induces interference, and higher interference at that. In contrast, 2♣ accomplishes much less, and lower, preemption. Exchange of info is easier. Thus, one "protection" for this is when 2NT shows primes and relatively balanced, because then we can HIT the interference. 5440-based 2NT's mean interefence without ptotection.

Part III -- Quick Snapshot

The third reason for me is the prep for the interference. If we do get a diamond preempt, Opener/Partner might do something, like support clubs, that could be useful. Partner might introduce hearts. His focus will be different and, I believe, more helpful. He often will be able to act at a lower level (2NT-4♦ looks like 2♣-3♦, IMO).

If partner cannot act, possibly in the same sequence, I have some more info anyway. In any event, worst case scenario, I still believe that partner is better placed as to evaluation of his slow club honors. If I have to pick a preferred start, I'd rather have 1♠-P-2♣-4♦-P-5♦-? than 1♠-P-2NT-4♦-P-5♦-?

Conclusion

The final point is that 2NT cannot handle the world's problems. It is a very preemptive method of supporting a major, taking up a lot of space for us. If the bid can be any wild combination of patterns, then the inferences available from failing to bid 2NT are too difficult to untangle. Structural integrity, for me, includes one key concept. Quantitative and shape bash calls are done with primed hands; slower auctions are used for mixed-honor and mixed-shape hands.