[ulven]

If 1NT is F/semiF then it's an obvious choice.
Really.

Otherwise 2H.

[1eyedjack]

Jlall, on Aug 20 2007, 02:53 AM, said:

I can't believe 3H as weak is standard. What are people bidding in this auction with Kxx Kxxxx xxxx x? A mixed raise is not only way more likely on this auction, it is more useful.

I would have a punt at 4H on this. If I am going to bid 3H with that hand, presumably I would also bid 3H with x, Kxxxx, Kxx, xxxx. Partner may well want to bid 4 opposite one but not the other. Just a stab in the dark.

[jtfanclub]

Quantumcat, on Aug 19 2007, 07:22 PM, said:

My partner tends to open 8 counts in 3rd seat so I am staying the heck away!

Uhhhh, your opponents have a combined 28 hcp, at least one (if not both) are short in your suit, and they're both passing?

Where can I find opponents like that?

[pbleighton]

Quote

I would have a punt at 4H on this. If I am going to bid 3H with that hand, presumably I would also bid 3H with x, Kxxxx, Kxx, xxxx. Partner may well want to bid 4 opposite one but not the other. Just a stab in the dark.

If pd has a hand which can make 4, he won't pass 2H.

I really don't understand bidding past 2H on this hand.

Peter

[1eyedjack]

pbleighton, on Aug 20 2007, 04:24 PM, said:

Quote

I would have a punt at 4H on this. If I am going to bid 3H with that hand, presumably I would also bid 3H with x, Kxxxx, Kxx, xxxx. Partner may well want to bid 4 opposite one but not the other. Just a stab in the dark.

If pd has a hand which can make 4, he won't pass 2H.

I really don't understand bidding past 2H on this hand.

Peter

If partner has a hand on which he cannot make 4, there is an excellent chance that we are still beating par by being in it. That said, if partner had a perfect minimum: Axx, Axxxx, Qxxx, x then we should romp home on a 2-1 break, and I would not expect him to move over a 2H raise. Not that we should be catering for perfect hands opposite, but hey, that is just one.

[skjaeran]

It's close between 2♥ and a preemtive 3♥. 2♥ might be best, but I'm sure I'd bid 3♥ at the table.

[Walddk]

1eyedjack, on Aug 20 2007, 06:06 PM, said:

That said, if partner had a perfect minimum: Axx, Axxxx, Qxxx, x then we should romp home on a 2-1 break, and I would not expect him to move over a 2H raise.

But he can't have that hand. LHO passed, so he has no opener. And RHO passed over 1♥ although he is short in hearts; so he hasn't an opener either. Pray tell how partner can have a 10 count opposite your 4 against silent opponents.

Partner has a good hand, and a 2♥ response is what this hand is worth in my opinion.

Roland

[jdonn]

ulven, on Aug 20 2007, 07:50 AM, said:

If 1NT is F/semiF then it's an obvious choice.
Really.

Otherwise 2H.

This is totally true. I still love 1NT after the 1♥ opening in 1st or 2nd seat (in other words, when it is forcing).

[1eyedjack]

Walddk, on Aug 20 2007, 06:36 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Aug 20 2007, 06:06 PM, said:

That said, if partner had a perfect minimum: Axx, Axxxx, Qxxx, x then we should romp home on a 2-1 break, and I would not expect him to move over a 2H raise.

But he can't have that hand. LHO passed, so he has no opener. And RHO passed over 1♥ although he is short in hearts; so he hasn't an opener either. Pray tell how partner can have a 10 count opposite your 4 against silent opponents.

Partner has a good hand, and a 2♥ response is what this hand is worth in my opinion.

Roland

So what you seem to be saying, is that because of the peculiarity of this particular preceding auction a 2H raise is effectively forcing (partner can never be so weak as to want to pass) and may therefore be a more flexible raise than in other situations. I can go with that. Gives me a bit of brainache, but OK.

[Walddk]

1eyedjack, on Aug 20 2007, 07:59 PM, said:

Walddk, on Aug 20 2007, 06:36 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Aug 20 2007, 06:06 PM, said:

That said, if partner had a perfect minimum: Axx, Axxxx, Qxxx, x then we should romp home on a 2-1 break, and I would not expect him to move over a 2H raise.

But he can't have that hand. LHO passed, so he has no opener. And RHO passed over 1♥ although he is short in hearts; so he hasn't an opener either. Pray tell how partner can have a 10 count opposite your 4 against silent opponents.

Partner has a good hand, and a 2♥ response is what this hand is worth in my opinion.

Roland

So what you seem to be saying, is that because of the peculiarity of this particular preceding auction a 2H raise is effectively forcing (partner can never be so weak as to want to pass) and may therefore be a more flexible raise than in other situations. I can go with that. Gives me a bit of brainache, but OK.

Not sure where I said that 2♥ is forcing. I said that partner can't have the 10 count you gave as an example unless you play against one or two opponents who miscounted. Since you didn't comment, I assume that you actually think he can have that hand.

He has at least 14 hcp, could easily have more, and whether that is enough to bid game or make a game try is up to him and his judgement. I still think my hand is worth a 2♥ response, non-forcing

Roland

[pbleighton]

Quote

If partner has a hand on which he cannot make 4, there is an excellent chance that we are still beating par by being in it.

*Excellent chance* that the opps can make 3S or 4m with both opps passed?

I think not.

Peter

[mike777]

I do think it is a bit unfair to be forced to assume the opponents cannot still have good hands here. Everyone need not be forced to play a system where they must open 12 counts or overcall vul.

[1eyedjack]

Walddk, on Aug 20 2007, 08:26 PM, said:

Not sure where I said that 2♥ is forcing.

OK, you said earlier that "Partner has a good hand". I read from that you you can bid 2H confident that partner will not pass it. That would make 2H forcing, albeit after taking your own cards into account.

I presented a possible hand for partner that was SO weak that partner could not possibly have it given the context, and yet despite being so subminimum, 4H is a good prospect. You are saying that in context partner must be a lot stronger, and hence 2H is a better bid. Still don't quite get it.

[1eyedjack]

pbleighton, on Aug 20 2007, 08:29 PM, said:

Quote

If partner has a hand on which he cannot make 4, there is an excellent chance that we are still beating par by being in it.

*Excellent chance* that the opps can make 3S or 4m with both opps passed?

I think not.

Peter

We agree to differ

[the hog]

pbleighton, on Aug 21 2007, 02:29 AM, said:

Quote

If partner has a hand on which he cannot make 4, there is an excellent chance that we are still beating par by being in it.

*Excellent chance* that the opps can make 3S or 4m with both opps passed?

I think not.

Peter

Well it has happened, but I agree with Peter that its hardly an "excellent chance" unless you are playing against Caspar Milquetoast and his brother Rigor Mortis.

Perhaps you would care to post an example Jack, where the actions have been reasonable and the opps have an excellent chance of 3-4 S.

[jillybean]

To those suggesting a 1nt response, please elaborate. How would you expect the auction to proceed and what are the benefits? (I do not play forcing 1nt)

[ulven]

1NT serves to slow down the auction and makes it more difficult for the opponents to get in the auction as they may fear a misfit, i.e. if we don't have a fit then the guy with shortness have to cater for (4)5+ hearts with his partner.

After the expected 2m rebid from opener, I would bid 3H, which shows a weak, but decent hand, with 4+ support. We never expect to buy the contract at the 2-level anyway and this leaves partner well placed to determine the level.

Although this hand makes games against minimum opening hands with a shortness, it plays really terrible vs balanced/semi-balanced openers and lack entries to lead up to declarers honors. Should partner pass 1NT, then he's balanced and we where not making any high H-contract anyway, but 1NT may still make on the wrong lead vs say Axx/Kxxxx/QJx/Kx when opps make 2S/3C etc for a 5-6 imps swing.

If partner passes 3H, we've made it pretty difficult for opps to back into it. They may even be missing a making 4S.

I do like to play with an artifical 2C-rebid after 1NT, any strong or 1-suited M (2M-rebid showing 11-15 with 4+C). This gives you the tempo as well to convey the extra trump when partner is strong also. In standard if the auction goes 1H-1NT; 3C now you can't indicate the extra trumps which may be crucial since we still can be on for slam, unlikely or not.

[mr1303]

Since this is the Beginner / Intermediate forum, what ulven has posted is significantly non-standard.

If a 1NT response is forcing/semi-forcing, then the sequence 1M 1NT 2X 2M may contain support for the major if the hand is minimum/sub-minimum, e.g. around 4-6 HCP, and is designed so it sounds like a mere preference (imagine a normal 1NT response to 1 of a major), which is discouraging to partner.

The idea is that 1M 2M is constructive (7-10 or so).

Typically 1M 1NT 2X 3M is 10-12 with 3 card support, not what ulven has suggested.

[ulven]

mr1303, on Aug 21 2007, 08:19 AM, said:

Since this is the Beginner / Intermediate forum, what ulven has posted is significantly non-standard.

If a 1NT response is forcing/semi-forcing, then the sequence 1M 1NT 2X 2M may contain support for the major if the hand is minimum/sub-minimum, e.g. around 4-6 HCP, and is designed so it sounds like a mere preference (imagine a normal 1NT response to 1 of a major), which is discouraging to partner.

The idea is that 1M 2M is constructive (7-10 or so).

Typically 1M 1NT 2X 3M is 10-12 with 3 card support, not what ulven has suggested.

You're right, maybe I shouldn't have elaborated.
But, it was a reply to a direct question from jillybean2 above, and a part of stepping up from beginner/intermediate is being exposed to alternative ideas.