[han]

I call it a semi-joke (from poker).

[the hog]

cherdano, on Aug 29 2007, 12:30 PM, said:

Hannie, on Aug 28 2007, 11:25 PM, said:

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it

Well you may have thought it was funny because English isn't your first language. It could actually have been construed as rather insulting to the original poster.

[hoolie]

The_Hog, on Aug 29 2007, 02:05 AM, said:

cherdano, on Aug 29 2007, 12:30 PM, said:

Hannie, on Aug 28 2007, 11:25 PM, said:

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it

Well you may have thought is was funny because English isn't your first language. It could actually have been construed as rather insulting to the poster.

cherdano, on Aug 29 2007, 12:30 PM, said:

Hannie, on Aug 28 2007, 11:25 PM, said:

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it

"Well you may have thought is was funny because English isn't your first language. It could actually have been construed as rather insulting to the poster."

SH: To get this topic back on track, I didn't think that the reading comprehension
skills to tell this thread was about 2/1 rather than Sayc was any big deal.

"I think you've got this all wrong. It is more likely that you will be able to support diamonds after you bid 2S then that you will be able to bid spades after you bid 3D. Whether 3D shows extras or not has nothing to do with that. "

SH: There is a balance about informing partner about points or length so
though extras don't matter too much in this spade/diamond, which is easier
to rebid remark, extras matter. If the opener rebids spades, in one version of
2/1 this may mean you show extras by bidding your second suit at the three
level, say clubs, so you can't. When do you get to show the 15 points after
partner bids, say 2NT and the 3D rebid by opener is now indicated? Responder
on this hand is so strong it may not matter, slam is ice cold, but it could matter.

Partner recently opened 1S and I held
Q
Axxxx
KQxx
AQx

I bid 3NT which showed 15-17 and a small doubleton spade. I counted
the SQ has a doubleton. Not worth 18 because of no spots.

My partner passed who held 14 HCP and a seven card spade suit headed by AKJ.
(Kings of hearts anc clubs)

Other pairs bid 2H over 1S and then opener rebid 2S.
So they jumped to 3NT which was passed out.

I think the point showing bid is the best way to give partner enough
information to bid a slam, not the suit bid and later rebid NT.

[kenrexford]

hoolie, on Aug 29 2007, 02:54 AM, said:

Partner recently opened 1S and I held
Q
Axxxx
KQxx
AQx

I bid 3NT which showed 15-17 and a small doubleton spade. I counted the SQ has a doubleton. Not worth 18 because of no spots.

My partner passed who held 14 HCP and a seven card spade suit headed by AKJ. (Kings of hearts and clubs)

Other pairs bid 2H over 1S and then opener rebid 2S.
So they jumped to 3NT which was passed out.

I think the point showing bid is the best way to give partner enough information to bid a slam, not the suit bid and later rebid NT.

This is an incredibly strange example to give. 6NT or 6♠ is just about cold, and yet no one gets to slam because 14+17=31, and this is an example of how "showing points" is best? Am I missing something?

This hand has extra shape, conditional values, a stiff Queen in a primary suit, five cards in the other major, and Ace-and-Space holding, and an AQ holding. I've seen few hands that are more oriented to cuebidding, and yet you blasted to 3NT, killing any ability to find any secondary fits or to cuebid or to do much of anything.

How nice would a 2♥ response be if Opener did any of the following:

1. Raise hearts directly or conventionally
2. Jump rebid spades to set trumps (if possible missing the Queen)
3. Rebid 3♦

[hoolie]

kenrexford, on Aug 29 2007, 07:17 AM, said:

hoolie, on Aug 29 2007, 02:54 AM, said:

Partner recently opened 1S and I held
Q
Axxxx
KQxx
AQx

I bid 3NT which showed 15-17 and a small doubleton spade.  I counted the SQ has a doubleton. Not worth 18 because of no spots.

My partner passed who held 14 HCP and a seven card spade suit headed by AKJ.  (Kings of hearts and clubs)

Other pairs bid 2H over 1S and then opener rebid 2S.
So they jumped to 3NT which was passed out.

I think the point showing bid is the best way to give partner enough information to bid a slam, not the suit bid and later rebid NT.

This is an incredibly strange example to give. 6NT or 6♠ is just about cold, and yet no one gets to slam because 14+17=31, and this is an example of how "showing points" is best? Am I missing something?

This hand has extra shape, conditional values, a stiff Queen in a primary suit, five cards in the other major, and Ace-and-Space holding, and an AQ holding. I've seen few hands that are more oriented to cuebidding, and yet you blasted to 3NT, killing any ability to find any secondary fits or to cuebid or to do much of anything.

How nice would a 2♥ response be if Opener did any of the following:

1. Raise hearts directly or conventionally
2. Jump rebid spades to set trumps (if possible missing the Queen)
3. Rebid 3♦

QUOTE (hoolie @ Aug 29 2007, 02:54 AM)
Partner recently opened 1S and I held
Q
Axxxx
KQxx
AQx

I bid 3NT which showed 15-17 and a small doubleton spade. I counted the SQ has a doubleton. Not worth 18 because of no spots.

My partner passed who held 14 HCP and a seven card spade suit headed by AKJ. (Kings of hearts and clubs)

Other pairs bid 2H over 1S and then opener rebid 2S.
So they jumped to 3NT which was passed out.

I think the point showing bid is the best way to give partner enough information to bid a slam, not the suit bid and later rebid NT.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Rexford wrote:
This is an incredibly strange example to give. 6NT or 6♠ is just about cold, and yet no one gets to slam because 14+17=31, and this is an example of how "showing points" is best? Am I missing something?

SH: Yes, I was making the point that they didn't get to slam with 31 HCP and
a 7 card suit facing a doubleton, not a singleton or void. This is how I want to
compare the hands:
#1
AKJxxxx
Kx
xx
Kx

Hand under current discussion:
#2
xx
Kx
AQJT9xx
Ax
------------------------------

I think both these hands would drive towards a slam if their partner opened
1NT or at least both hands should. With the actual hands given, hand #2 is
cold for 6D and a finesse for 7D. While hand #1 is only 52% for the small
slam. But change this actual holding
Q
Axxxx
KQxx [Give this hand a point less, the A of D instead of KQ of D]
AQx

and hand #1 is cold for 6S and has a better chance for 7, than hand #2.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This hand has extra shape, conditional values, a stiff Queen in a primary suit, five cards in the other major, and Ace-and-Space holding, and an AQ holding. I've seen few hands that are more oriented to cuebidding, and yet you blasted to 3NT, killing any ability to find any secondary fits or to cuebid or to do much of anything.

SH: The stiff SQ may have little value. Some but not much facing AJ9xx but
a lot facing AKJxxx. How do I show my points? I can't jump shift or fake a
reverse. If I bid 2H like at the other table and hear a rebid of 2S, now a jump
to 3NT shows 15-17 but points concentrated in hearts, AQJ, I don't have that. Nor
if partner raises me to 3H do I have a continuation to show 17 points. Partner
may have raised me on QTx of hearts. I can't push for a heart slam because
my heart suit is so poor.

How nice would a 2♥ response be if Opener did any of the following:

1. Raise hearts directly or conventionally
2. Jump rebid spades to set trumps (if possible missing the Queen)
3. Rebid 3♦

1. I don't see that working unless partner can bid hearts himself as you
have suggested for the 3D rebid. I think trusting that partner has KQx
for his three card heart raise is too chancey. 4H doesn't look that much
better to me than 3NT if partner doesn't have 4 hearts to bid over 3NT.

2. That would be nice but most partnerships need AKQJxx not even AKQTxx.
So my SQ inhibits that bidding alternative. Another thing is you mention that
3NT consumes bidding space. How about on the hands where partner opens
!NT with Sxx instead of SQ? Doesn't responder using S.A. bid a strong 3S or
more modernly, bid a strong 3H transfer to 3S? Using about the same amount
of room. I suppose there are some slam gadgets over a softer 2H transfer.
But the spade bidder has 2 kings to protect so the advantage of a transfer
seems rather slight to me. Why can't cuebids start over 3NT?

3. I don't see why he can't rebid another suit as it is... When there are two
big hands, the partner with the points should bid them and limit his hand. The
partner with the undisclosed long suit should be the Captain. My 3NT bid was
not a signoff or a unilateral handhog bid, it described my hand well.

You haven't mentioned what I think is the most grevious mistake!! Why did
partner pass 3NT with 7spades facing an announced small doubleton. When is it ever right especially at imps to play in 3NT rather than at 4S in your 9 card fit?
As for cuebidding, there are good hands for it and other hands best explored
using RKC. On hand #1 (spades) he doesn't have any outside aces to cuebid.
So I think the spade hand should correct to 4S over 3NT and on the way
check for aces. I think 5S is quite safe. Partner could safely discover if I
have 3 aces, so I would need another King or working queen for my NT jump.
In this case he would unexpectedly find 2 aces and the trump Q. I hand #1
the use of RKC is even clearer to find 6D. With the particular hands in question
the captain with the long suit can decide to cuebid if spades have been implied
or bid a another suit over 3NT if not, or ask for aces.

I don't think it should be any harder getting to slam with 7 card suits having
either the long diamond hand, 15 HCP + 14HCP or the long spade hand with
14 HCP + 17 HCP. Usually people only add 1 extra point for the 5th, 6th and
7th cards in a suit; but those extra cards often translate into entire tricks.

#2
xx {x}
Kx
AQJT9x {x}
Ax

change the extra diamond to an extra spade which improves the spade fit with

AKJ87x
ATx
xxx
K

and it is clear the time to rebid spades is when the 2D responder only
has five diamonds. And there are two different styles, the spade rebid
promises 6 or the spade rebid shows a minimum and may have 5 <ML>
Iirc, diamond and spades slams pay the same imps.

Also for the record, I have read 5 books on 2/1 but three were by the
same author.

[han]

The_Hog, on Aug 29 2007, 02:05 AM, said:

cherdano, on Aug 29 2007, 12:30 PM, said:

Hannie, on Aug 28 2007, 11:25 PM, said:

Jokes are never funny when you have to explain them. This one probably wasn't even funny to start with.

I disagree, this one got funnier when Ron didn't get it

Well you may have thought it was funny because English isn't your first language. It could actually have been construed as rather insulting to the original poster.

Since English is your first language I may have to explain the joke. When someone writes "in all 5 books that I have read" that says to me that he has five books in his or her life. Of course, it was obvious from the context that the poster meant "all five books that I have read on this topic". It was a rather lame joke indeed.

I did mean it half seriously too because it seems rather strange that someone claims that 3♦ is dictated when almost everybody here, including several world class players, state that it is clearly wrong. When that person then also writes that all these posters apparently lack basic understanding of 2/1 then that might put me in lame-joke mood.