[Badmonster]

Maybe this belongs in the water cooler. Anyway, why (mathematically) does the rule of 11 work?

[jdonn]

I'm gonna just try to logic it out. There are 13 cards in a suit, pretend they start from 1. Say you led the lowest card in a suit, there would be 12 higher, second lowest then 11 higher, etc. So if you subtracted your card from 13 you would know how many are higher. But since the lowest card is a 2, you have to subtract it from 14. And since fourth best means he has three higher, there are 14-3 = 11 higher in the other hands. Bingo!

[Flame]

A more intresting question is Do you use it as a defender?
I know many experts dont use it, they prefer to imagine what partner might have based on the lead rather then count.

[skjaeran]

Flame, on Aug 11 2007, 10:03 AM, said:

A more intresting question is Do you use it as a defender?
I know many experts dont use it, they prefer to imagine what partner might have based on the lead rather then count.

The rule of 11 (or rule of 10 and 12 if playing 3rd/5th) can be very useful to determine the correct card for 3rd hand at trick one. It's easier to imagine declarers (and thus partners) holding applying this rule. You know at once how many higher cards than the card lead declarer holds, and from the cards you can see and the non-sequence lead you can often infer much about which cards is held by whom.

The only problem with 4th lead is that you don't know if partner lead from a 4- or 5-card holding - 3rd/5th is better in that regard. I still prefer attitude leads vs NT - we lead 4th from a "good" holding and (1st)2nd from a bad suit. We combine this with up-side-down Smith signal (from both hands).

[ralph23]

Flame, on Aug 11 2007, 03:03 AM, said:

A more intresting question is Do you use it as a defender?
I know many experts dont use it, they prefer to imagine what partner might have based on the lead rather then count.

Yes, it is used by both declarer and defender when it is believed that opening leader is leading fourth best.

If they are leading 5th best, use the Rule of 10.

To see this is right (per Josh's explanation), imagine the JQKA are numbered 11,12,13 and 14. If you subtract any card from 14, then, you will know how many cards in that suit are larger.

E.g. subtract 2 from 14, there are 12 larger than the 2. Subtract 12 from 14, there are two larger than the 12 (i.e. the Queen).

If 4th best, then leader holds three of these larger ones, so as a shortcut: subtract from 11 instead of from 14.

If 5th best, then leader holds four of these larger ones, so as the same shortcut: subtract from 10 instead of from 14.

Etc etc.

[blackshoe]

A more general statement is this Rule of 15: When the lead is Nth best, subtract N from 15, and then subtract the value of the card (number of pips for spot cards, 11-14 for JQKA) from the result.

[pclayton]

Flame, on Aug 11 2007, 12:03 AM, said:

A more intresting question is Do you use it as a defender?
I know many experts dont use it, they prefer to imagine what partner might have based on the lead rather then count.

It was a very important day in my development when I started using the Rule of 11 as soon as dummy came down as both 3rd hand and declarer. That day didn't come in my first year of play either. It took several years before I realized the importance of the concept.

I'm sure there are many hands where my play doesn't matter but analyzing the opening lead is so ingrained into me that I just do it with asking myself if I need to think.

[cherdano]

I never use the rule of 11, I just visualize the possible holdings for partner.

[mikeh]

Sorry, Arend... but if you don't use the rule of 11, you are either making a basic error or (and this may well be your situation), your partnership makes attitude leads rather than count.

If you use count, then it is, frankly, idiotic not to make use of the Rule of 11, or whatever the number is... it is 12 for 3rd best and 10 for 5th best.

It is a quick and easy guide..

Now, it is not rigid. Against suits, in particular, defenders often lead from Hxx and so the lead will not always be 4th best. But against notrump, unless playing attitude leads, it is far, far easier (and reliable) to use the Rule.

Dummy hits with Q972, you hold AJ8 and partner leads the 5. Declarer calls low.

If you put in the Jack, and partner has K1065, you can't take 4 tricks in the suit anymore. Your correct play is easy, using the rule of 11. There are 6 cards outside of partner's hand that can beat his 5, and you are looking at all of them. So you play the 8.

Now, if partner has 2 entries, you get to run the suit, and, even when he doesn't, you make declarer's life more difficult.

Now, you can maybe work this out at the table by imagining partner's hand, but defence is very energy-demanding, so why not use this rule to make life simple? And this advice comes from someone with an aversion to many of the 'rules' that non-experts live by.

As for experts: I would be astounded if there were any alive today who did not 'use' this rule when they encounter 4th best leaders. The probably reason for it not appearing to be used all the time is that there are relatively few 4th best leaders today, in the expert ranks, compared to, say, 30 years ago.

[cherdano]

Mike, we do use standard 4th best leads (allowing for 2nd highest from bad suits as pretty much everyone). I just don't find it costs more energy to visualize the possible layouts, and you have to make yourself a picture of the possible layouts of the suit anyway.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Aug 11 2007, 11:11 AM, said:

Mike what are you talking about? It is clearly superior to think about actual combinations and not use the rule of 11, the rule of 11 is just for beginners to make it easy for them.

If partner leads the S5 (4th) and dummy has KJ43 and I have A92 how hard is it to say partner can have QT65, QT75, QT85, Q875, Q865, Q765, T875, T865, T765, 8765. But with 8765 he wouldn't lead the 5 so we can rule that out.

Of course you can just go over the combinations rather than use the rule of 11 and get the same information (plus more additional information).

I think about both. For me (anyway) it takes too long to work out all of the relevant combinations, without the Rule of 11. Once I see how many cards pard has above the spot, I can work out the combinations.

[cherdano]

pclayton, on Aug 11 2007, 01:34 PM, said:

I think about both. For me (anyway) it takes too long to work out all of the relevant combinations, without the Rule of 11. Once I see how many cards pard has above the spot, I can work out the combinations.

Uhm, if you lead 4th best, partner always has 3 higher cards that the card he led, there is no need for rule of 11 to figure that out...

[jdonn]

Notice when I tried to 'logic it out' before, that is because I hadn't even thought about it in so long lol. I certainly never use it.

Justin made it seem complicated by listing out so many examples, but Mike in your example there are only three cards missing higher than partner's lead. It is not exactly energy consuming to conclude that if partner led 4th best he has all three of them.

[markleon]

cherdano, on Aug 11 2007, 03:37 PM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 11 2007, 01:34 PM, said:

I think about both. For me (anyway) it takes too long to work out all of the relevant combinations, without the Rule of 11. Once I see how many cards pard has above the spot, I can work out the combinations.

Uhm, if you lead 4th best, partner always has 3 higher cards that the card he led, there is no need for rule of 11 to figure that out...

I'm fairly sure Phil meant that once he sees how many cards declarer has above the spot. I use the rule of 11 for the same reasons. If declarer has only 1 or 2 cards higher than the spot, then it can be easier to work out those relevant holdings than opening leader's.

Perhaps this is because I am in the 40+ age group and energy that I readily expended in my 20's now seems more precious to me. But in this my attitude is, as it is towards most things in life, use whatever works for you.

[mikeh]

Jlall, on Aug 11 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

Mike what are you talking about? It is clearly superior to think about actual combinations and not use the rule of 11, the rule of 11 is just for beginners to make it easy for them.

If partner leads the S5 (4th) and dummy has KJ43 and I have A92 how hard is it to say partner can have QT65, QT75, QT85, Q875, Q865, Q765, T875, T865, T765, 8765. But with 8765 he wouldn't lead the 5 so we can rule that out.

Of course you can just go over the combinations rather than use the rule of 11 and get the same information (plus more additional information).

Well, I didn't say that one's thinking as defender starts and ends with the Rule of 11. Maybe it's a quirk of my mind, but I don't find that I spend any discernable energy subtracting his spot from the number 11 So it is a cost free, in terms of energy, basic check, which once in a while gives you an immediate answer. Of course, most of the time, it doesn't... and even when it does, it is best to think about the hand anyway. So, of course I analyze combinations, but the rule of 11 is, once in a while, a shortcut means to the correct play. Maybe it is because I have always used it... learned it as a beginner and never saw a reason to abandon it... that I find it to be utterly cost-free. Compare that to my example hand where the 8 is the right play from AJ8 over dummy's Q9xx... while while working out that partner must hold K10xx is not difficult, it is unnecessary. I am a lazy player, so I like rules... rules that are not someone's opinion (the rule of 20, for a horrible example) but rules akin to the law of gravity

Now, if you find that it takes significant energy to apply the Rule of 11, don't do it: spend your resources on the construction of combinations, but I doubt that this situation applies to Justin, or Arend or any of the posters here

[SoTired]

Shame on those that denigrate "rule of 11". Shame, shame, shame.

Sure, many experts have no trouble visualizing the entire layout. But 90% of the players, even experienced ones, will never be able to do that without paper, pen, and 5 minutes. They are good players, but can't visualize the outstanding cards. And even if they could with practice, they generally can't do it without expending large amounts of time and energy.

So, for those 90% of players, the "Rule of 11" is a god-send.

[barmar]

Anyone who says they're not using the Rule of 11 probably is, just not consciously. Visualizing the possible card combinations that the player can be leading from is essentially the same thing, since all those combinations will include the same number of higher cards in the 4th hand. You still have to use other methods to infer WHICH of the higher cards are where (e.g. do you think it's more likely the lead is from an Ace or a Queen?).

The Rule of 11 just ends up being a very simple, quick way to do this in a particular, common situation.

Another use of the Rule of 11 is in figuring out whether partner is leading low from an honor or top of nothing. If the Rule of 11 tells you that declarer has a negative number of high cards in the suit, partner is not leading 4th best.

[cherdano]

.....
Nobody denigrated the rule of 11, just many posters said they never use it and find it superior to just think of partner's possible holdings.
If someone is a "good player" then he can visualize the outstanding cards. If someone can't, then he can't play very well.
Why am I using the rule of 11 subconsciously when I am visualizing partners possible holdings where his spot card is his 4th best card?? Of course you can come to the same conclusions using the rule of 11, but that's not the same thing as using the rule of 11 subconsciously.

I still like the rule of 3: When partner leads 4th best, he has 3 higher cards than the card he played.

[kgr]

cherdano, on Aug 13 2007, 04:21 AM, said:

I still like the rule of 3: When partner leads 4th best, he has 3 higher cards than the card he played.

If result of rule of 11 is smaller then 3 then I use rule of 11, otherwise rule of 3.
(..try to imagine declarers cards in one case and partner's in the other. Just want to make it as easy as possible).