[mishovnbg]

Hi friends!
About cheaters: one of the easiest way is to analyze same person play, thanks to "My hands" database. In my opinion in BBO they are few. When I meet posible cheating at table I ask about director and note about unusal play or bids. Later I look that person boards in "My hands" and soon the "picture" is clear, at least for me. Next step is avoiding to play against same person. When I must play against him, because of tourney, I am just very careful... But I will never say to somebody, that he is cheater!!! To do same against possible fair man is bigest mistake! And may be worse than cheating, because can ruine nice person... I think
same accusation must be interpret by "yellows" like any other restricted rudeness!
Misho

[Booze]

I know its very hard to prove that somebody is cheating , but cheating can be done in so many ways

Easy to prove

1. is falsebidding or alerts, missleading opps

2. Leads , unlogical leads , might happen , but not too many unlogical but always correct , I ve seen spectacular leads but correct of course :)

3. dont leading P suit ?? if it happens a lot , they have an agreement that should be alerted ,

hard to prove

1. hard bad correct bidding

2 always correct finesses and from top when correct, I watched one play from top and singel K falls with an 8 cards fit, and no reason to do it.

3 declaring against % but correct


IMO this is BBO biggest problem, cheaters dont only destroy for opps , I know a lot of players that says they never trust a pair from a certain country:(, thats tragic , I know personally a lot of good players from that country, cheaters destroy for all of us !!!!

I had to give up as Yellow because of this , esp when some other yellows say they dont care. As I strongly believe that accepting cheating will increase the number of cheaters, a lot of pairs will cheat as they see they dont have a chance if they dont do it and why do some advanced players level them self as beginners ??

The more incitament we give for winning a tourney the more cheating we will have.
Maybe tourneys where dancing or dating is more important then bridge is the only way ??

And should it be up to our poor TD:s to judge cheating ??

Bo

[inquiry]

I am uncertain as to whether reporting suspected cheaters to the tournment director is the right thing to do or not. For one thing, many of the directors are not equiped to judge if someone is cheating. For another, unless the director is a yellow, there is little the director can do. (well intentional mis-information and the like, they can adjust your score).

Instead, if you strongly suspect someone of cheating, report it to abuse@bridgebase.com. It might help if you include a few hands to support your allegations. DON'T tell all your buddies that your think player A or player B cheats, no matter how strong your belief that they do. It would probably help if you sent along "evidence" in the form of links to myhand pages of hands which you believe cheating occurs (and be fair, if there are hands in same event that prove they must not be cheating, then don't bother reporting them).

And as noted by STEVE in the original post in this thread, don't thow out random you must be cheating accusations at the table (essentially in public). If you do, the person getting in trouble is likely to be you rather the suspected cheater.

Ben

[bglover]

I must chip in again here...

I have quit directing any tourneys but TopFlight due to the ongoing and apparent cheating in BBO tourneys. It was a giant source of frustration for me to watch people do some of the obvious things they were doing and have so little power to stop it.

The best I could do was blacklist those I was pretty sure of from future tourneys and that would be the end of it.

The problem with tourneys is there are so many ways people can cheat (particularly in clocked events). The fact so many people were so willing to do it openly left a bad taste in my mouth quite frankly.

Now, with the advent of ACBL-sanctioned tourneys on BBO coming, this problem I fear will only worsen. I was an ACBL-certified director (no longer... my time ran out) and was asked by some of the other directors here if I wanted to direct some of these new sanctioned ones. My response was "I saw so much cheating when there wasn't anything at stake that I just cannot fathom the amount of cheating that will now go on; I want no part of this." His response to me was "Hey, you know they cheat, at least you'll be getting paid for your efforts"

I think anyone here who directs and is a tourney-experienced player sees what I saw. The problem is that so much of it is "unprovable" that you just have to accept it as part of the online game... Or, you can do what I did. Principles are a tough thing to live with, but I am not sorry I have mine.

[inquiry]

Well, winning seems to be too important to some players. I mean how pitiful a life they must have to cheat at on line bridge when playing for nothing. I suspect Steve is right, cheating will increase when ACBL points come into play, but again, what is some fraction of a point worth. What do you prove by cheating? That you are not good enough to play well without doiing it?

But if you spend all your time worrying about the cheaters, you will not enjoy the game as much as you should. Come to the BBO to have fun, to sharpen your own skills, to try out new conventions, to meet old and new friends. I see much to much emphasis on this person or that person cheats. When directing tournments, I have had only two people reported to me as "cheating." In one case, after reviewing myhand records, in my opinion the allegation was well founded and I sent the evidence to the abuse site, along with a dozen example hands I had found. In the other case, it was abundently clear from examining the hands of the partnership in question that they were not cheating (again in my opinion). Unlike Misho and Steve, I don't have a list of players I think cheat... just the one player, but it is probably because I don't look for cheaters. I worry about what I am doing and what lessons I can learn from each hand. Catching cheaters and worrying about if I am plus 2 imps for the day or minus 2 imps is not something I am interested in. I am always looking for the next interesting hand or trying out whatever new toy I am using.. current new toys are meta overcalls ala Misho, new minor by opener forcing, and mixed drury/2=1GF after first and second seat opening bids.

Ben

[Booze]

I guess situation is a bit different for Yellows, I hate cheaters and was a yellow , reports of cheaters and abusers made me sick , and in long run they will do a lot of harm at BBO!!! I guess we loose "good users" by not chasing cheaters

Bo

[uday]

It is easy to accuse someone of cheating, and sometimes people do this in ignorance of some aspect of bridge, or some aspect of our rules.

However, since yellows have the power to ban, yellows must walk carefully.

Do you think BBO should (all based on a small set of hands)

a) Suspend a player who might be cheating ?
or
Suspend a player who is probably cheating?
or
c) Suspend a player who is almost definitely cheating?


My current philosophy is "Innocent until proven guilty".

It is harder to prove that someone is cheating than one might think.

Yes, you might "know" that someone is cheating, but I think we should *know* someone is cheating before acting.

What is the answer? I don't know. My way, we let some (probable) cheaters remain online to cheat. More aggressive pruning would (probably) wind up suspending some innocent players.

[inquiry]

My personal view is Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a very high standard indeed, given the bizzare bids and plays that go on at the table. Just yesterday I had the urge to open 3♦ on a piece of junk.... 2-2-5-4 hand with a ♦suit headed by the TEN, not vul versus vul. I choose not to do so. But imagine if I had, and I had hit partner with a ♦ suit as well. Would that not be "proof" (one hand proof of course) that I had cheated? Another time the day before I did open a five card suit (but of course a better suit.. I held KQJT8) at not vul versus vul.

Recently I defended as EAST with the following hand...

P-P-1NT-All pass

---

The opening lead was the ♠2 (fourth best) and when dummy played low, I did too. Declarer won the ACE and continued the ♠Q, I ducked again. After strugglng a while (he could still make it with lucky guesses), declarer went down and accused me of cheating for not playing the ♠K at trick one. But any bridge player can see that playing the KING can't win even if partner has ♠AQ as declarer always wins a trick, and can lose (as in this case)... I mean there sits the ♠JT-fourth in dummy for all to see. That isn't cheating.. dummy is after all exposed to all.

So I fully support the concept that the evidence has to be overwhelming before banning a player. But if after review you THINK he is cheating (rather than suspect or know), maybe someone should have a talk with the player in question.

Ben

[bglover]

Well... The point is that during tourneys peoples' behavior worsens beyond comprehension. Somethimes you "know" a claim was rejected or a hand was slow-played because the contract was a bad one but you can't prove it.

That is the nature of on-line bridge and the cheating that goes on with it. Sure, we all have witnessed players sitting at a table in the Main Lobby area who have played a number of hands in a fashion that seems improbable and we suspect they are getting information from a friendly kib or have a phone going. I'm sure that has happened to me on several occasions but I also know there isn't much one can do about it except keep an eye on him or her and see if it continues.

But, the stuff in tourneys is "different" because it encompasses so much more and is so much tuffer to prove. Ya, I "know" so and so rejected a valid claim cuz time was running out but I can't report it to BBO because there is no way to prove these things beyond a reasonable doubt. So, when I was directing open tourneys I just blacklisted everyone that I was pretty sure was pulling this kind of crap.

I did report a few to abuse due to extraordinary behavior that went beyond the realm of bad taste, but the reports weren't for cheating per se (altho I'm sure the behavior was meant to skew results and ruin the outcome). And, some of the people did get banned (and, thank Goodness, haven't returned that I know of).

But, to repeat from earlier, I saw enough "bad stuff" during my directing that I certainly was no longer interested in doing it. I couldn't resolve the personal conflicts it created within me, since I abhor cheating and knew that tourneys were fostering it (and other kinds of absurd behavior) that I just never saw before tourneys were instituted here.

[Trpltrbl]

I think that if you need to cheat to win at a game where nothing is to be won, is just the saddest thing ever. I would give them a rope and a chair and if they need somebody to kick the chair from under neat them, I volunteer.

Mike

[Booze]

I dont know if I have been wrong in any of they players we have barred ?

Last week I saw on 3 different occasions, users asking for their P hotmail or ICQ in lobby chat b4 tourneys.

I have earlier asked users to come to a chat room, to explain their bids or play, if I suspected some. If they have some kind of logical explanation I accept it.


Bo

[irdoz]

What started out as a discussion of cheating accusations has now turned into a discussion of actual cheating, how sad cheats are and what people would like to do to them.

The problem with too much focus on actual cheating is that it may make accusations more likely. If you foster an environment of suspicion then it tends to foster i) more cheating ("everyone's doing it") and ii) more accusation. I think it's better to provide ethical leadership and reinforce that the vast bulk of bridge players do not illegally communicate or deleiberately play slowly in tournaments etc. etc. and that most bridge players do not do these things - ie state it in the positive rather than whine about the small proportion who behave in a reprhensible manner.

In my experience the vast bulk of bridge players do not and would never cheat. That is not to say sadly that cheating is not way to frequent online - but it is a lot less frequent than you would imagine from these discussions. I have directed online for close to three years and have received as a director many complaints implying something irregular in relation to potential illegal communication. For about 95% of these complaints there was a perfectly rational explanation for the bidding or play. In other words most accusations are based on ignorance.

Even in regards to what looks like deliberate slow play there is often an explanation such as technology or actually needing to think. But the assumption is always the worst one. In a recent event here my partner had to recount the hand on the second last trick (leading to Q10 with the AJ missing - recounting HCP locates the A based on the bidding) - there was 3 on the clock - but when she paused for 15 seconds the opps called the director and made an accusation about deliberate stalling.

The amount of work involved in "proving" cheating is large. I have collected and monitored hands at the site I mostly play on and referred them to the management. For some pairs the patterns are relatively obvious. But where the behaviour is infrequent or intermittent, or the players are of average skill level, then it may be impossible to prove.

I don't think there are easy answers that don't involve an immense amount of effort - there certainly isn't a technological fix.

[bglover]

Actually, the type of cheating in tourneys I was referring to is often very obvious but impossible to prove.

It usually involves people rejecting valid claims and then letting the clock run out. That was why I switched to unclocked events after BBO improved the movement. The number of episodes dropped to zero not surprisingly.

However, it didn't improve in any way the amount of aggressively abusive behavior that I saw in tourneys. As I've stated before and in other threads as well, once tourneys were implemented, there was a palpable change in behavior. Even Uday has acknowledged that before.

I lump active bad ethics in with all other forms of cheating. I don't make distinctions-- bad behavior is cheating if it is meant to gain an unfair advantage. I saw way too much of this during my directing time.

Now, with TopFlight, I have none of it. Three director calls in 15 tourneys and no cheating accusations. Note that we specifically decided to not implemet any awards for our tourneys so that these types of accusations would not arise. None have as of this writing.

Sure, I have a lot more non-directing work to do (answering questions, doing commentary, maintaining the club stuff) but the trade off is well worth it.

[mr1303]

There are a few of my friends from university who play on here. Yes I have their hotmail addresses etc, and yes I occasionally discuss bridge hands whilst I'm playing.

1) I never do this when playing a tournament.
2) Our discussion does not consist of "The King is singleton and offside" or anything similar

Is this "cheating"? I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with discussing bidding conventions, or attempting to improve the play of my partner. The main bridge club isn't ruthless competitive bridge.

[inquiry]

mr1303, on Feb 3 2004, 02:24 PM, said:

There are a few of my friends from university who play on here. Yes I have their hotmail addresses etc, and yes I occasionally discuss bridge hands whilst I'm playing.

1) I never do this when playing a tournament.
2) Our discussion does not consist of "The King is singleton and offside" or anything similar

Is this "cheating"? I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with discussing bidding conventions, or attempting to improve the play of my partner. The main bridge club isn't ruthless competitive bridge.

I suspect you will get a few comment here.

Of course, discussing during tournment play is a clear no-no, some will say discussing even in the main room is too.

Instead of doing this, find tables in the main room like mine, where we allow partenrsip to straighten out their bidding in the open. I certainly don't mind one partner bidding 4NT to say "use 03" responses, or the guy biddign 5C over 4NT to say "1-4 partner". However, I know that my feeling on this issue are not shared, and I suspect your action will ve viewed as "cheating" by many and they willl correctly note, it violates the rule of the site.

Ben

[luke warm]

mr1303, on Feb 3 2004, 09:24 PM, said:

There are a few of my friends from university who play on here. Yes I have their hotmail addresses etc, and yes I occasionally discuss bridge hands whilst I'm playing.

1) I never do this when playing a tournament.
2) Our discussion does not consist of "The King is singleton and offside" or anything similar

Is this "cheating"? I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with discussing bidding conventions, or attempting to improve the play of my partner. The main bridge club isn't ruthless competitive bridge.

i think any discussion, tournament setting or pick up game, while the hand is being played is flat wrong... if one MUST talk about the play, so so between deals... after the session would be much better

[mr1303]

I think people are mis understanding my comment here. I would like to clarify my position.

I do not tell my partner anything that can unfairly assist him in his play of the hand. All I do is tell him things like

"That shows 16+ HCP" (if he reverses) or something similar. Or "I'm only guaranteeing 2 diamonds by that 1D opening"

Firstly, most of the time I play online with friends of mine, who I am quite happy for them to discuss in a similar fasion.

Secondly, my regular playing partners are not advanced players, and I wish to help them learn this great game of ours.

Thirdly I don't take any pleasure in setting opponents by 1100 over a bidding misunderstanding. I'd like to think that other people feel the same way about this.

If after reading this, people still feel that I am cheating, then I will stop doing this. However I do not feel I am hurting anyone by my actions, and at least I can say I am honest about it, and do not do it to gain an unfair advantage

[Free]

Imo its not actually cheating, but you can avoid every comment about it by just commenting in the BBO program after the game is played. This way, your opps will also know what went wrong, and won't suspect you of cheating when you say something on regular bases. If something goes wrong and you don't say a thing, opps might start accusing you of chatting behind their backs, which isn't nice...

[inquiry]

There are shades of cheating... I was playing in a tournment yesterday, limited to regular partnerships made up of "experts" (I snuck in), and one fellow bids 4NT (blackwood), and the other responds 5C and says in public chat (1 or 4).

Now, I have seen this happen during tournments and have somoeone fly off the handle that this is "cheating". I certainly don't mind if they do this, for like you, I understand that online is somewhat different from f2f. But if people think saying this in public is cheating, imagine their feeling if they think you are discussing the meaning of the bidding "in secret". Again, if you want to chat about the meaning of your bids (a great way to learn btw), try to play at tables where this is encouraged in the open. I know when I play in the main room, my usual parnters and I don't mind this type of discussion. Of course don't abuse it.. using cue-bid as michaels when you have a michaels hand (and say "michaels") and then turn around and use it as strong forcing takeout when you have that kind of hand (and say "strong"). But we all know this is not what you meant you were doing.

Ben

[Gweny]

I host online tournaments for 3 years now.

In this time I suspect certain people of cheating but only 3 times, prior to coming to BBO do I find positive proof... in form of misdirect ims...

Do cheating exist. Certainly. Is it rampant? I think no in BBO.

I do not agree time events increase instances of cheat for BIDDING, but it do introduce other form of cheating - delay of game to avoid bad results. Personally I find this even more disgusting than relaying info to partner prior to, or during bidding or play. And I do block people who I see doing this if and only if I certain it is not connection problem.

I mourn you leaving ranks of yellow Booze. You fine person and very fine, caring, helpful yellow. I do not remember 1 time you do not take time to help me when I ask. <even slightly silly questions> It is definately our loss. I hope you reconsider at some future date. Do not let cheaters steal you from us please.

I do agree we need do vigilant PRIVATE investigation and at same time spank people who cry Cheat! any time opp make difficult contract.