[shanbari]

imps, NS VUL

---

left opp opened 1s

(1s) x (2s) pass
(p) 3c (p) ??

[jillybean]

pass

[ralph23]

It's an interesting question ... partner had one of 2 types of hands for his X:

1. Regular t/o double kind of hand, unlimited in strength.
2. the "big hand" overcall ... too strong to overcall. So he had to X first.

If p had a type-1 hand, and minimum values/minimum shape, he might just pass here. If he had that type hand and extra values/extra shape, he would double again. First x said "Bid", 2nd x would say "Bid, dammit!"

So, p must have type 2 hand. 18+ in our book. I"m raising to 4♣.

[pclayton]

This is a great hand and has a lot of potential opposite a big single suiter. I'd probably try 4♣ and hope I'm not missing the boat in 3N.

[jdonn]

4♣. I would sooner bid 5♣ than pass.

[Fluffy]

My first intention was to pass, but thinking of posible hands for partner, if the hand fits (he has no KQx in hearts) we are favourite for 5♣.


Partner might had doubled second tound with 1336, I think he is likelly to have 2326 more often, with a top spade honnor. That would make 3NT kinda appealing, I'll try 3♠.

[skjaeran]

4♣. Bypassing 3NT might turn out to be wrong, but I think 5♣ is a better prospect than 3NT. Pass isn't an option to me, like Josh I'd rather bid 5♣.

[pbleighton]

4C.

Peter

[gwnn]

If 3♣ will be the best spot, partner probably doesn't understand the difference between a 2-level overcall and a GOSH. 4♣.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

at IMP's you have to bid 4C, you have 4 card support
and ruffing values.
Playing MP pass is ok.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Since it is IMPs, 4C it is.

[mcphee]

Well who plays in 4C anyway, I'm going the distance with 5C . This is not the sort of hand where 3N comes to mind. There are stronger ways to reach 5C and although this is'nt going to me laydown it should have a shot.

[Halo]

Pass.

I wouldn't expect 18+ for this auction.

So if I give partner: x,AKx,Qxxx,AKQxxx I'm one or two off before I get to win a trick.

[cherdano]

Halo, on Aug 5 2007, 11:13 AM, said:

Pass.

I wouldn't expect 18+ for this auction.

So if I give partner:  x,AKx,Qxxx,AKQxxx I'm one or two off before I get to win a trick.

These are 14 cards. If you take away a red card, I would overcall 2♣ (planning to double spades later). So for me, passing 3♣ is out of the question, as Josh said it is closer to 5♣ then pass.
Even if you allow double-then-bid with this hand, surely partner can be stronger, what else can he do with this shape? Since you are likely to make 4♣ opposite this minimum with heart wastage, it can't be right to pass 3♣.

[neilkaz]

PD has a hand too strong to overcall 1♣ and while I have junk, I have 4 card support and ruffing values. 4♣ it is, as I don't expect to make game if PD is min for his actions but do, if PD has anything much extra.

[Halo]

cherdano, on Aug 5 2007, 01:52 PM, said:

Halo, on Aug 5 2007, 11:13 AM, said:

Pass.

I wouldn't expect 18+ for this auction.

So if I give partner:  x,AKx,Qxxx,AKQxxx I'm one or two off before I get to win a trick.

These are 14 cards. If you take away a red card, I would overcall 2♣ (planning to double spades later). So for me, passing 3♣ is out of the question, as Josh said it is closer to 5♣ then pass.
Even if you allow double-then-bid with this hand, surely partner can be stronger, what else can he do with this shape? Since you are likely to make 4♣ opposite this minimum with heart wastage, it can't be right to pass 3♣.

I usually prefer to have 14 cards. It's useful in the play and allows protagonists in debate to avoid the issues if so inclined. (apologies for the extra diamond).

We live in a world where a lot of people have no strong bids, because the hands are so rare. Yet here we are proclaiming partner as holding a minimum of 18 points. Bring on these partners is all I can say.

[jdonn]

Halo, on Aug 5 2007, 12:13 PM, said:

Pass.

I wouldn't expect 18+ for this auction.

So if I give partner: x,AKx,Qxxx,AKQxxx I'm one or two off before I get to win a trick.

These examples are pointless since someone else can come back and say x Axx KQx AKxxxx. No 14th card needed.

[ArtK78]

I would bid 5C without hesitation.

This sequence shows a hand too strong for a 2C overcall, and one that can control the auction in case partner jumps in a red suit. I have a great hand opposite a long club suit in a strong hand. I might bid 5C on this shape with a total blizzard.

Quite frankly, 5C could be an underbid. Partner could have:

---
Axx
KQx
AKQxxxx

or

---
xxx
AQx
AKQxxxx

which makes slam on a successful diamond finesse.

[ralph23]

Halo, on Aug 5 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

I wouldn't expect 18+ for this auction....

We live in a world where a lot of people have no strong bids, because the hands are so rare.  Yet here we are proclaiming partner as holding a minimum of  18 points.  Bring on these partners is all I can say.

♣♦♥♠

1. Having 18 HCP points is not so rare. The odds of having a (precisely) 18 high-card point hand (NB - entirely disregarding distribution) are 1.61%.

Odds of zero point hand = 0.36% (and we ALL have these, don't we ? )
Of one point hand = 0.79%
Of two point hand = 1.36%
Of 19 point hand = 1.04%

So, all in all, disregarding distribution, it is slightly more likely that you will pick up an 18 or 19 pointer, than you will a zero-1-or-2 pointer.

2. And, what else can partner have on this auction, except the proverbial "big hand" double for his initial call? (True, not everyone overcalls on up to 17 -- some have a lower limit for overcalls, but ours is 17 HCP, more or less). No other conclusion is logical, is it?

If partner can have something other than the "big hand" double, what is it? I would like to know. I surely can't imagine what it would be. But my imagination is limited....

3. Surely, if you knew (or were pretty confident) that he had the "big hand" double and ♣, you would bid, would you not?

I just can't understand the logic of passing. What is it? Thanks.

This post has been edited by ralph23: 2007-August-06, 09:34

[TimG]

neilkaz, on Aug 5 2007, 02:01 PM, said:

PD has a hand too strong to overcall 1♣ and

What is the maximum for a 1♣ overcall?

[ArtK78]

TimG, on Aug 6 2007, 10:45 AM, said:

neilkaz, on Aug 5 2007, 02:01 PM, said:

PD has a hand too strong to overcall 1♣ and

What is the maximum for a 1♣ overcall?

I don't know. My partnership has never defined the point range for a bid that is not legal.



Seriously, though, the upper limit on a 2♣ overcall is quite high. In the GNT in Chicago, I made a takeout double of 1♥ holding a strong hand (about 19 HCP, but I was not concerned with the HCP) with long clubs but without spades. I thought it was too good to overcall 2♣. My partner, who has literally been playing this game since it was invented (David Treadwell), thought that my double was terrible, and that I should overcall 2♣. At the other table, David Berkowitz did overcall 2♣ on my cards. I got the better result, however, since we reached 6♣ which the opps doubled, which scored, but when Cohen and Berkowitz bid to 6♣, our teammates sacrificed (red against white!) in 6♠, going for 500.

The point is that there is almost no upper limit on the strength of overcalls when a double would leave you poorly placed. So, when you do double and bid a new suit later in the auction, it shows a VERY strong hand.