[gwnn]

MP, all red, your system can be described in a few words like:

2/1 GF, non-forcing NT (good 14 counts with 5M332 are opened 1NT), reasonably sound openers (good part of 12 counts are passed).

You hold

Scoring: MP

---

and partner opens 1♠.

Would you force to game?

[hrothgar]

gwnn, on Aug 1 2007, 01:11 PM, said:

MP, all red, your system can be described in a few words like:

2/1 GF, non-forcing NT (good 14 counts with 5M332 are opened 1NT), reasonably sound openers (good part of 12 counts are passed).

You hold

Scoring: MP

---

and partner opens 1♠.

Would you force to game?

Somewhat confused:

You're playing 2/1 GF but you aren't playing a forcing NT? That's asking for trouble.

Personally, I don't think this hand is quite strong enough to establish an immediate game force. I would prefer to make a forcing NT. I intend to

Pass a 2♠ response
Bid either 3♥ or 4♥ over a 2♥ response
Raise 2♦ to 3
Bid 2N over 2♣

I think we'll be reasonably well positioned over most sequences.

[kenrexford]

Not game force.

Strange part, though, is how different the styles and decisions are after the rebids.

After 2♣, I'm not bidding 2NT. I'm bidding 2♦ Bart.
After 2♦, I'm raising to 4♦, or 3♥ if that is a fit-jump, or 3♣ if that's artificial and forcing. Not just 3♦.
After 2♥, I'm not bidding 3♥ ever. I hopefully can bid 3NT as a super-acceptance/serious raise of hearts. I'll only bid 4♥ if I have no tools.
After 2♠, I'm bidding 2NT, not passing.

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Aug 1 2007, 05:45 AM, said:

Personally, I don't think this hand is quite strong enough to establish an immediate game force. I would prefer to make a forcing NT. I intend to

Pass a 2♠ response
Bid either 3♥ or 4♥ over a 2♥ response
Raise 2♦ to 3
Bid 2N over 2♣

I think we'll be reasonably well positioned over most sequences.

It seems you're losing the heart fit when opener is 5332, 5323, 5314. If the choice is between that and the slight overbid of an immediate 2♥, I might opt for the GF.

[helene_t]

Playing a forcing 1NT would not be very helpfull on this hand. P rebids 2♣ and I can only bid 2N which p will pass with 4♥ being cold. Or not cold.

Now at least we may play an easier 1N.

[pbleighton]

Quote

You're playing 2/1 GF but you aren't playing a forcing NT? That's asking for trouble.

I interpreted this as a semi-forcing NT.

Like Tim, I might bid 2H to avoid losing the heart fit. It's very close.

Hands like this are why I don't care for 2/1 (though I play it every week).

Peter

[mike777]

1nt

No problem yet.

Will make some sort of system allowed invite bid next.

BART may help.

1s=1nt
2c=2d
2h=2nt was developed for these types of hands.

[Apollo81]

I would not force game immediately. As Mike mentioned, this is a good hand for Bart. Without it, I would respond 1NT and then bid 2NT over the assumed 2♣ rebid. If partner surprises me with any other rebid, I'll probably force game at that point.

[ArtK78]

This hand is not a game force.

Hands like this are why conventions like BART were invented.

Personally, playing a 2/1 structure, I still like to use 1S-2H as an old fashioned 10+ hand with 5 hearts, not forcing to game (but forcing 1 round). I do use a special structure over this sequence:

1S-2H Not game forcing

-2S Mark time bid - not forcing, not showing anything special.
-2NT Artificial game force
-3C Natural, game forcing
-3D Natural, game forcing
-3H Natural, invitational
-3S Natural, invitational
Higher bids - natural.

After 1S-2H-2S, 2NT, 3H and 3S are not forcing. Everything else is game forcing.

One more comment - playing 5 card majors, you MUST play a forcing 1NT. Otherwise you just have too many hands that are not biddable, especially if you play 2/1 GF.

[gwnn]

The only issue is that sometimes partner passes with a bad 5332 14 count and we miss game with 11+14 or some such. We also play IJS and constructive raises, so most other problems are solved. Or, that's what my experience tells me.

BTW, I saw 2-3 posters here saying they played this method (non-forcing NT, natural rebids over 1M-1NT, 2/1 GF).

BTW this is a nice ad for 1♠-2♦=transfer to hearts, planning to rebid 2NT.

[jdonn]

It's not worth a game force, but in this context I would game force anyway since the methods are so bad and I would rather not play 1NT with a cold game.

[keylime]

If I was playing forcing NT I'd be much better positioned.

With the conditions given, the only time I'd force to game is if I was playing a Fantunes flavored method where I know pard has a "real" hand versus a "shape" hand".

For me what is interesting is if pard finds a 3C call.

[han]

I comfortable bid 1NT and I hope that we are playing BART.

[kenrexford]

Did I hear something about Bart?

[pclayton]

Sounds like you are playing a semi-forcing NT, not a NF 1N response.

Im fine with 1N. If pard passes with a min balanced hand Im OK with it.

If you dont play Bart and play 1N forcing, this is a very challenging hand type.

[zasanya]

Jlall, on Aug 1 2007, 07:55 PM, said:

This just isn't close to a GF. If 1N gets passed out aren't we happy about it?

If it doesnt get passed out how do we convince P that we have 11hcp 2 Aces including 1 in his suit a reasonable 5 card ♥ suit and good intermediates?