[vuroth]

Scoring: IMP

3♦ (P) ???

---

I thought about this bid for a long time, but did I miss the point completely?

[FrancesHinden]

It's just a matter of what you think partner needs for a 3D opening.
Opposite one of my partners I would bid 3NT. Opposite another I would pass.

I can't see doing anything other than 3NT or pass. Although 4S might be right, partner will be stuck over your 3S bid and you won't be able to play 3NT with the KJ of hearts protected.

[SoTired]

with 19, I am not passing. 3N is first choice. 3S gives up 3N, but may be right. If I bid 3S and opener rebids 4D, I will raise to 5D.

[helene_t]

3NT is clear I think. If p has ♦KQxxxxx it's cold. Otherwise he may have Kxxxxxx and they split 2-2, or he might have a side entry plus some help in hearts, or they may not lead a heart.

It's not the point that this hand has 19 points. I would pass with AKxx-AKxx- - AQxxx. The point is that the chances of 9 tricks before opps have 4 are good.

[pbleighton]

I will bid 3NT opposite any partner, though one of my partners has a simlar style to one of Frances' (and myself)

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3D.

May or may not make, but if partner
has Kxxxxxx and out, you are more or
less home if diamonds are 2-2 and they
dont attack clubs firing back a heart.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ralph23]

Shoot it out in 3NT.

A sideline: Suppose you are in 3NT and opening leader insidiously leads a ♦. You take the first 7 diamond tricks, ending on the board (partner bless him had KQxxxxx).

What do you lead from dummy at trick 8 and why ?

NB When partner preempts, count tricks and not points. Partner thinks (at these colors) that he can take 6 tricks in his own hand if ♦s are trump. Go from there.

[FrancesHinden]

ralph23, on Jul 25 2007, 05:49 PM, said:

NB When partner preempts, count tricks and not points. Partner thinks (at these colors) that he can take 6 tricks in his own hand if ♦s are trump. Go from there.

Absolutely.
That's why 3NT is not clearcut.

Don't get me wrong - I would not say that anyone who bid 3NT here was incorrect. Anything other than pass or 3NT is incorrect, IMO.

But by bidding 3NT you are, in effect, gambling that
i) Partner has the DK, and
ii) Partner has 7 diamonds.

I don't want to frighten the children, but the following look like 1st NV 3D pre-empts to me:

x
xx
QJ10xxxx
Jxx

x
xxx
KQJxxx
xxx

what's more, the following looks like 1st NV 4D pre-empts

-
Qxx
KQJxxxx
xxx

Now, it may be that KQ to 7 diamonds, or at least KJxxxxx, is more likely than any of the these hands. You can judge so, and bid 3NT backing that judgement. But I don't think it is obvious.

There is a mild pre-emptive gain from bidding 3NT: the opponents may have a cheap heart save against it, and you have stopped LHO bidding 3H.

Against that, 3NT is obvious across from a 2nd seat pre-empt.

[ralph23]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 25 2007, 12:25 PM, said:

ralph23, on Jul 25 2007, 05:49 PM, said:

NB When partner preempts, count tricks and not points. Partner thinks (at these colors) that he can take 6 tricks in his own hand if ♦s are trump. Go from there.

Absolutely.
That's why 3NT is not clearcut.

Absolutely, it's not clear cut. That's why I said "Shoot it out." Just take a deep breath and bid it. We may make, we may go down.

But there's not room for much science here. Just hope partner has the King of ♦ and something else good happens. NB - No one is vul here.... I will be shocked if partner preempted at 3♦ with only a six-bagger when he had a weak 2 bid available to him....although he might do that at green, I doubt it at all white.

[vuroth]

My first mistake was counting points and not winners. I started out wondering if we could make 6. Partner needs K♦, and ace, AND something more - Q♦ or K♠ - to make it a fair gamble. I decided that the hand I needed for slam would have opened 1♦, and not 3♦.

So far, so good.

Somehow, I never really considered 3NT, and went straight for 5♦. I knew my hearts could prove to be 2 quick losers, but I think I was also worried about transportation. Ax in diamonds isn't all that hard to get frozen out with.

Lucky for me, 5♦ made, but it didn't look like a very good contract at all. My hand isn't rich enough in cashable winners for the 5 level. In the end, I either need to gamble that my low diamond will be an entry to runnable diamonds in notrump, or pass and play what should be a safe 3♦ contract.

[pbleighton]

Quote

But there's not room for much science here. Just hope partner has the King of D and something else good happens. NB - No one is vul here.... I will be shocked if partner preempted at 3D with only a six-bagger when he had a weak 2 bid available to him....although he might do that at green, I doubt it at all white.

Never, NEVER be shocked at all white

Peter

[SoTired]

you are right, it is not clear-cut. but 3N is the right bid. or 3S. Pass is just plain cowardly.

[awm]

Like Frances said, you gotta know your partners. It's also relevent whether 2♦ would have been weak -- if it has some other meaning then partner's more likely to bid 3♦ on a six-card suit.

In most partnerships I play a fairly sound preempt style and would try 3NT here, expecting at least to have some play. If opponents weirdly lead a diamond, my plan is to win in hand and play the club king at trick two. This works if LHO has club ace (he can't hurt me on any lead now) or if opponents duck the club ace, or if RHO wins the club ace and switches to spade (there has not been much time to signal remember) or if RHO wins the club ace, switches to hearts, and I guess the suit.

[goobers]

Pull out your CC and look at what you checked in your "Preemptive openings" section

Anything could be right here if you don't know p

[P_Marlowe]

awm, on Jul 25 2007, 07:59 PM, said:

Like Frances said, you gotta know your partners. It's also relevent whether 2♦ would have been weak -- if it has some other meaning then partner's more likely to bid 3♦ on a six-card suit.
<snip>

But even if it is only a 6 card suit, you will have some
play 4 3NT, sometimes partner has the Queen of hearts
and KJ in diamonds.

I may be more worried oppossite a green vs. red preempt,
but even than I would bid 3NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

I like to play a preempt as just short of a 1-opening, no matter the vulnerability, scoring and seat, although a NV 1st-seat preempt can be much less diciplined in terms of O-D than a V 2nd seat preempt. It's easier to get used to one style per partner than to many, and the frequency of 6-10 HCPs (yes I know HCPs are irelevant but still) is higher than 2-6, especially in 2nd seat. Besides an important reason for preempting is (the word "preempt" says it already) to describe your constructive assets before opps makes it unsafe for you to do so.

I do have the agreement in one partnership, though, that at favorable a 3M-opening is weaker than a 2M-opening. The 2M-opening retains its normal meaning, a 3M-opening is trash, and a hand that would open 3M at other colors typically opens 4M.

[gwnn]

I'd never contemplate passing, even though missing a white game is not that big of a deal and many should do it more often.

[DWM]

For a 3 level pre-empt I would expect P to have at least 6 winners in his hand should diamonds be trumps, and more likely 7. So with QJxxxxx he should have an outside entry to the trumps. Therefore I would bid 3NT straight away.

I cannot see this going down anywhere near enough times for it to be against the odds to bid 3NT. But then perhaps I have got stuck on keeping to the -300/-500 rule albeit as a guide rather than a rule.