[Badmonster]

---

If in third seat you open a light hand that you like enough you'd have still opened it in first or second seat (you might not have, I would have) how do you respond to a 2c bid? Playing reverse and playing two way drury, if the answers are different?

[gwnn]

you don't have to count losers and zar points and etc to see how this one is a (sub) minimum opener.

in simple oldest good old drury, the rebid is 2♦->minimum
in simple good old revdrury, the rebid is 2♥->minimum
in two-way drury, i don't care if it's a 3 or 4 card raise, the rebid is 2♥->minimum

Albeit in case of 2♣ being a 4 card raise and I KNOW for sure that 2♦ is a mild and natural game-try, not necessarily a good agreement, but a valid one, it might pay to stretch a little and make it. this way, we get our sweet game bonus opposite

Axx
Axxx
Kx
xxxx

but this is a very pipedreamy hand and game isn't remotely rock solid.

[ralph23]

♦♥♠♣

Bail out at 2♥ in Reverse Drury.

[kenrexford]

This actually brings up a question I had never considered.

Playing specifically 2-way Dury, after the 4-card raise, does anyone play that 3M is "preemptive?"

Example:

P-P-1♥-P-
2♣(4-card Drury)-P-3♥

Makes some sense; just never have heard of anyone doing this.

[bhall]

Any hand that would not accept an ordinary limit raise will make the "minimum" rebid in some partnerships. That clearly includes most 13s. If responder's hand evaluates to opening strength in support, he takes another call over this rebid.

[skjaeran]

This hand is IMO an opening in 1st and 2nd seat also. But it's still a 8-loser sub-minimum hand, and I'd not consider any other response than 2♥. I need something exeptional from partner to make game, and he'll most probably take another call with such a hand.

[skjaeran]

gwnn, on Jul 22 2007, 01:07 AM, said:

Albeit in case of 2♣ being a 4 card raise and I KNOW for sure that 2♦ is a mild and natural game-try, not necessarily a good agreement, but a valid one, it might pay to stretch a little and make it. this way, we get our sweet game bonus opposite

Axx
Axxx
Kx
xxxx

but this is a very pipedreamy hand and game isn't remotely rock solid.

This is a clear 1st/2nd seat opening to me, partner will never hold this hand when i make a 3rd seat opening.

[helene_t]

As I learned it, the answers are (playing reverse drury: if you play classic drury, just reverse 2♦ and 2♥):
2♦: Full opening strength but not enough to GF.
2♥: Less than opening strength (= no game interest)
4♥: To play
Other: slam try.

In the case of ♥ it doesn't matter too much but in the case of ♠ I think the 2♥ rebid is more useful as some kind of game try than as a slam try. 2♥ could simply be natural, considering that a 4-4 (or better) ♥ fit is better than the 5-3 ♠ fit.

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on Jul 22 2007, 01:18 AM, said:

This actually brings up a question I had never considered.

Playing specifically 2-way Dury, after the 4-card raise, does anyone play that 3M is "preemptive?"

Example:

P-P-1♥-P-
2♣(4-card Drury)-P-3♥

Makes some sense; just never have heard of anyone doing this.

Well, I play 2♣ as a 3-card raise and 2♦ as the four-card raise, but other than that we play everything pretty much the same as after direct raise to the 2-level i.e. 3 of own major pre-emptive, 3 new minor short suit game try etc

[barmar]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 22 2007, 03:29 AM, said:

Well, I play 2♣ as a 3-card raise and 2♦ as the four-card raise

That's usually called "Two-way Drury".

[skjaeran]

barmar, on Jul 24 2007, 06:07 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 22 2007, 03:29 AM, said:

Well, I play 2♣ as a 3-card raise and 2♦ as the four-card raise

That's usually called "Two-way Drury".

Yeah, and I do just the opposite with my regular partner - and reverse too, of course.

That should be up side down 2-way reverse Drury?

[ralph23]

skaeran, on Jul 24 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

That should be up side down 2-way reverse Drury?

Harald, I think upside-down and sideways .

We play 2-way also(rightside-up), and if opps interfere with a 2♣ overcall over my 3rd seat major suit opening, we play 2♦ as "all purpose Drury" which can be either 3 or 4 pieces.

Do you play Drury when you open in 4th seat ? Or only over 3rd seat openers ?

[ArtK78]

Look at it this way: Would you bid a game opposite any hand that could not open the bidding and would not bid game on its own after you open in 3rd seat?

It doesn't matter whether you would have opened the bidding on your hand. It only matters whether you think you can make a game opposite a passed hand.

Ken: About your theory that 3H could be used as preemptive in the sequence P-1H-2C*-3H. What sense does this make? Your opponents have passed throughout and your partner showed a good hand with his Drury bid. Who are you preempting? Are they really going to balance over 2H on this auction? And, if they do, why would you not be able to buy the hand for 3H or show a profit by doubling 3S? I am sure you could construct a hand where the 3H bid preemptive would work, but it is hard to figure. 3H should show a strong hand, game forcing, slam invitational, with no shortness. A new suit bid should show a shortness.

[kenrexford]

ArtK78, on Jul 24 2007, 12:39 PM, said:

Ken: About your theory that 3H could be used as preemptive in the sequence P-1H-2C*-3H. What sense does this make? Your opponents have passed throughout and your partner showed a good hand with his Drury bid. Who are you preempting? Are they really going to balance over 2H on this auction? And, if they do, why would you not be able to buy the hand for 3H or show a profit by doubling 3S? I am sure you could construct a hand where the 3H bid preemptive would work, but it is hard to figure. 3H should show a strong hand, game forcing, slam invitational, with no shortness. A new suit bid should show a shortness.

I agree that 3♥ as preemptive might have less utility than a slammish option. However, I'm not so sure that your argument is quite right.

You must be the only person in the world to not see this auction frequently occur:

P-P-1♥-P-
2♥-P-P-2♠-
3♥-3♠-???

This is the same auction. The opponents have no committed to bidding yet, for any number of reasons. However, they often come alive after a bid-and-raise signoff at two of the major.

There are actually two risks here, though:

Risk #1:

P-P-1♥-P-
2♦!-P-2♥-2♠-
P-P-3♥-3♠/P-
P-P/3♠-???

Risk #2:
P-P-1♥-P-
2♦!-P-2♥-X-
P-suit-3♥-PPP (lead director)

[SoTired]

For the dubious loss of using 3H as preemptive, you lose the real use of 3H as a forcing bid with slam interest. Remember, responder has already shown a LR, so if opener has a strong hand, a slam is possible. Q-bid space may be needed.

The only time 3H would be useful as preemptive is: 1) hearts not spades, 2) No game, 3) willing to play 3-level, but not 4-level, 4) no defense against 3S. This seems like a very narrow potential target hand when a real hand with constructive meaning is much more likely and useful.

And when our partnership makes a game-try and we don't accept, the opps probably won't play 3S undbled.

[ArtK78]

Ken, SoTired is making most of my argument for me. But I want to point out that a Drury sequence is NOT equivalent to a single raise sequence. By bidding Drury, partner is announcing that he has a good hand. A single raise essentially announces that partner does NOT have a good hand. And if he does not have a good hand but does have a fit, then the other side has some values and a fit. So the balance is almost automatic.

That is not true in a Drury auction (although it is more frequent in a 4-card raise Drury auction, one of the reasons I do not use the 2D bid as 4-card raise Drury).

[kenrexford]

This is actually cracking me up, because I am not in favor of a 3♥ call as a "1-2-3 Stop" equivalent. However, I am caught in an argument concerning that idea. So, I'll run with it.

There is a logical error in claiming that 1♥-P-2♥ is not equivalent with P-P-1♥-P-2♦!. Sure, Responder is showing a good hand. However, Opener is not, in the second example. Surely 11 opposite 9 is the same as 9 opposite 11, right?

Furthermore, the use of 3♥ as a slam try is of limited utility to some of us. I'll give a simple example of a possible approach, after P-P-1♥-P-2♣! (the 4-card raise for me):

2♦ would show extras. If a cuebid, a diamond control.
2♥ is a sign-off.
2♠, if a cuebid, would deny a diamond control but would show a spade control.
2NT, if a cuebid, would deny a diamond and a spade control and would show poor trumps.
3♣, if a cuebid, would deny a diamond or spade control, would show a club control, and would show good trumps.
3♦, 3♠, and 4♣ would be splinters.
4♦ is undiscussed, but also available as some type of slam move, perhaps a void.

3♥, in this scheme, would deny any control except in hearts. How is that useful?

Or, suppose a different scheme, where 2♦ shows most non-specialized slam hands. Or, where 2♦ is a general game try and everything above 2♥ is a slam try.

The point is that with the amount of amaxing space available, 3♥ as a slam try is very preemptive and may well be completely useless to some people. So, for those people, 1-2-3 Stop makes sense.

[jtfanclub]

kenrexford, on Jul 24 2007, 03:08 PM, said:

This is actually cracking me up, because I am not in favor of a 3♥ call as a "1-2-3 Stop" equivalent.

I hate the name 1-2-3-Stop.

If 3 hearts shows a 6 card suit and 9-10 hcp, partner could easily have enough to go for game, particularly if he has 3 hearts and a singleton. 21 hcp should be plenty for that combination, especially if responder is control-heavy. But using a lower bid to show that hand gets rid of a more useful bid.

So to me, it makes sense to use 3 hearts in a number of auctions to show a minimum with extra length, not as a '1-2-3 stop' or primarily as a 'pre-empt', but as a very specific game try where you know you're safe on the three level.

I mean, why not?