[jillybean]

What sort of hand will you hold for these bids in 3rd position?

1. 1♠ (X) XX

2. 1♠ (X) 2♣

[Echognome]

1. A 1=4=4=4 hand with 9+ points is textbook. Some people add say a 3-card limit raise to the mix.

2. A non forcing hand with 6 clubs seems standard. Something like xx xx xxx KQJxxx seems normal.

And now for how I play it with my regular partner's.

1B. About 6-9 balanced.

2B. A hand with 5+ diamonds. May look like hand 2) above, but with diamonds, or may be stronger if the hand is going to bid again.

With the hand 1) type, I pass and double later.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 XX should deny a spade fit, at least inv. values (since the XX creates
a forcing pass situation, how high the partnership has to decide) and
at least 2 strong 4 card suits, the XX shows interest in going after their
blood, but XX maybe your only strong bid, if a 2/1 bid by responder
is nonforcing, which is quite common

#2 natural and (non)forcing

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Robert]

Hi jillybean2

Standard is 10+ and many(most?) play 'shortness in the suit opened.' Some just play 10+ and bids show less.

I like one Italian style where XX shows a co op type hand with two cards in partners major and 10+ HCP 'asking' for an opinion. Do you want to double or outbid them?

The other side of this style is that 'pass and double' would indicate a strong suggestion to play for penalties and denies spade support(since you did not XX)

Regards,
Robert

[Quantumcat]

When 2 over 1 bids are nonforcing after a double, how do you make a normal forcing change of suit?

[Gerben42]

Redouble states we have the majority of HCP and normally also: I can double at least two of the other suits.

2♣: A typical hand would be a 6-card suit or good 5-card suit and about 6 - 9 HCP. Unfortunately the classical style does not allow us to bid good hands with 1 suit...

[Quantumcat]

Oh ok so does that mean XX then a suit bid is strong (Like takeout double then bid of a suit is 17+)?

And if you were strong but no five card or longer suit, you could bid 1NT or 2NT or 3.

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Jul 18 2007, 11:18 PM, said:

What sort of hand will you hold for these bids in 3rd position?

1. 1♠ (X) XX

2. 1♠ (X) 2♣

The XX shows 10+ without support if you play Jordan (2NT shows a limit+ raise in this situation), or just 10+ if you don't play Jordan. If you don't play Jordan, and you play XX as denying a fit, there are some hands you can't bid.

New suit is natural and nonforcing. I do it with 5, but it has to be a good 5, or maybe I should say a solid 5: I'm more likely to do it with QJ9xx than Axxxx. Even for 6+ I want to have something in the suit.

[TimG]

jtfanclub, on Jul 19 2007, 08:20 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Jul 18 2007, 11:18 PM, said:

What sort of hand will you hold for these bids in 3rd position?

1.  1♠ (X) XX

2. 1♠ (X) 2♣

The XX shows 10+ without support if you play Jordan (2NT shows a limit+ raise in this situation), or just 10+ if you don't play Jordan.

Doesn't Jordan generally show 4-card support?

[jtfanclub]

TimG, on Jul 19 2007, 08:46 AM, said:

Doesn't Jordan generally show 4-card support?

Depends on who you play it with. If you play it as 4+, then the XX just denies 4+ card support.

http://www.bridgehan...n_2_Notrump.htm

[jillybean]

I missed a couple of sequences from the first post

1♠ (X) 2♣ is nf

but

1♣ (X) 1♥(♠) is natural and forcing



1x (X) 2nt is a limit raise+

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

Oh ok so does that mean XX then a suit bid is strong (Like takeout double then bid of a suit is 17+)?

Yes, though the lower limit is much lower (10+, 1RF), because unlike the takeout double situation your partner has promised an above average minimum amount of strength. It can be awkward if 4th hand preempts though, which is why transfer bids have come into vogue in advanced circles.

Quote

And if you were strong but no five card or longer suit, you could bid 1NT or 2NT or 3.

No, absolutely not. With non-fit for partner, and balanced hand, you will often score better defending than declaring. 1nt shows 8-9, but some of those hands should be passed. With more you should redouble & try to double the opponent's runout. You will make your decision based on the relative vulnerability, your length/strength in the suit, & whether partner can double them. If the opponents seem to land in a comfy 8+ cd fit, or you are vul vs. not, and you have minimum but sufficient for game values, you may choose 3nt thinking it will score better than the available penalty. But in most other cases you will get more by doubling them, at least if you can defend accurately. That is why 2nt is used conventionally as a limit+ raise. 3nt, I don't even know if that has std meaning, start with xx first.

[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

In the old old days the standard rule was that "all good hands redouble" i.e. any hand with 10+ would redouble. Today if responder has a decent hand that would bid 1-of-a-suit over partner's one-of-a-suit, he can still do that and it still is forcing just as if no double had taken place. (But responder can just pass with a dreky 4cM hand and a 5-6 count if he chooses). THis wasn't the question submitted, but it seemed a propos anyway.

1. The modern way is XX shows 10+ and no fit for opener. We still play Bergen is on after X, so Jordan 2nt over the X shows always 3-card support and limit+ raise and 3♦ shows 4 card support with limit+ raise. The "+" never seems to come up but you still need a way to show the improbable strong hand with a fit.

2. 2♣ therefore denies 10 points and shows a place to play.

3. 2NT isn't possible naturally (most use Jordan as an artificial 2NT support showing bid). How do you play 1NT ? I would say about 8-9 with worthless doubleton spade and scattered values in the other suits... I can make a case for passing with this hand but I hate to get shut out and I want partner to know I am not broke. Problem is 1NT will let them off the hook in cases where we should be whacking them.... oh well, you pays your money .....

It wasn't clear in the question what seat the opener was in.... if he opened 1♠ in the 3rd seat, then 2♣ would be Drury (if you play that), showing limit raise in opener's major. If you play "2 way" Drury (I think that is what it is called), then 2♣ shows 3-card support and 2♦ shows 4 card support for opener's major.

We revert to "normal" non-Drury rules when opener opens in the 4th seat after 3 passes (e.g. Bergen), although some people play Drury there too. How do other people play this? Thanks.

[mikeh]

Hi JB

This is another of the areas in which the 'standard' methods usually taught to B/I players are less-than-best, and the fact that 'standard' is an evolving approach means that different people will learn different 'standards', adding to the confusion.

I agree with a lot of what has been posted already.

1x [x] 1y, is most commonly these days bid on hands that would have bid 1y had there been no double, and thus the auction is forcing for one round, and the auction proceeds as if the double had not happened (altho knowledge of the double will influence both partners' choices and certainly the line of play).

This became standard when most players realized that using redouble on ALL hands of 10+ hcp often led to difficulty finding a fit. Say you held xx AQJxx Kxx xxx and RHO doubled partner's 1♣ opening. If you redoubled (as would have been standard 40-50 years ago, maybe more recently as well), LHO bounces to 2♠ and it goes pass pass to you. Now what? You may have a 9 card heart fit, but can you really afford to bid 3♥? That would be forcing, and you don't have any safety.

This type of problem led to the 1-level being natural, ignoring the double. The redouble was restricted to 10+ hcp with no real fit for partner and length in all the side suits.... to allow opener to start doubling himself.

When opener bid a major, 2N was an idle bid: with a balanced 11 count, with a doubleton in partner's suit, and the odds that the opps will be bidding at the 2-level, the prospects of a penalty double are good, so we don't want to give that up for an invitational 2N call. Add to this the desire to preempt to 3 of our major on weak hands, and need met opportunity: we needed a limit raise once we used the jump as weak, and 2N was not being used for any natural purpose: hence 'Jordan', where 2N is a limit raise (some play limit or better).

2/1 responses, however, remained relatively unaffected by this evolution: the standard meaning remains that it shows a good(ish) suit, almost always 6 cards or more, and denies a fit for opener... certainly denies 3+ in partner's major.

This does mean that good hands with a long suit that cannot be bid at the one-level are sort of stuck... a pass makes no sense, and redouble tends to show a different hand. The only consolation is that the long suit/good hand/no fit combination is rare.. hardly a satisfactory solution.

BTW, in the minors, 2N remains unattractive as a natural response over a double, but there are two schools of thought. One uses what is often called 'flip/flop': 2N is limit in the majors, weak in the minors, while a jump to 3 of the suit is weak in the majors and limit in the minors, while others prefer to treat the minors just like the majors... I am in the latter camp, altho I usually go along with my partners who tend to be in the first camp. I don't like the idea of 2N as preemptive because it gives 4th seat a chance to pass and then bid with moderate hands, whereas if we preempt to 3minor, 4th seat is under pressure to bid immediately, making his bids less well-defined.

All of these issues have caused many in the expert community, and increasing numbers of less-skilled players, to use one or other of the various more complex schemes.

My own preference forgoes the 'penalty redouble' entirely: experience suggests that the opportunities for low-level lucrative doubles are rare, and the scheme I prefer doesn't completely lose those that do occur.

Redouble is a transfer: to the next higher call... ie 1♠ [x] xx is a transfer to 1N, while 1N is a transfer to clubs and so on. A transfer to 2 of opener's suit is a 'real' raise.. a sound - to - constructive bid, while a simple raise is 'garbage'.. we want to strain to take away an easy bid for 4th seat while making sure that opener can tell if we are raising on nothing or on values that might warrant game if he has a big hand. So the direct raise is a horrible hand... maybe 2-a really really bad 6, while the transfer raise is 6-9+.

With a penalty redouble hand, we pass and double at our next turn.

When we transfer into a suit at the 2-level, we are unlimited: so we get to transfer and pass with the hands that, in standard, we'd have bid 2/1 after the double. With bigger hands, we transfer and bid again.

There are other methods, but I am not sufficiently familiar with them to desxribe them here.. besides, I like the ones I use (not my invention, btw) and I have already written more than most will want to read.

I almost forgot: jump shifts over the opps' double:

Traditionally, the jump shift has been weak. Many now play that a jump in a lower suit (to the 3-level) is fit showing: classically at least 5=4 in the suits (usually longer in the suit bid) and invitational values with all the values in the 2 suits) while most still play that a jump into a higher suit (at the 2-level) is weak. Other methods are possible... personally, I play a more complex scheme, but I won't describe it here, since I wouldn't advise a B/I player to worry about it.