[ppek]

Hi,

I play Magic Diamond (simplified version) for a while and I asked few times myself whether we should alert 1st or 2nd seat pass? Such a pass denies almost any unBAL hand with 8+HCP and white vs. red it also denies BAL 10+HCP as we play 10-12 NT in this position.

Alert procedure in our country is almost identical to WBF rules.

Your oppinion?

[jtfanclub]

In the U.S.? Absolutely not.

I've had this discussion with Rulings before. They don't want us to alert Passes where the call is nonforcing and the most likely hand it shows is weak.

For example, after 1♣ (2♠), most people would pass with fewer than, oh, 9 hcp or so. Playing Precision, we pass only with 0-4 or hoping partner will takeout so we can convert for penalties. Since the bid is not forcing, and the most likely hand is weak, we have been asked to not alert it. Alerting it simply confuses the opponents who don't know Precision, and those who do know Precision don't need the alert because they already know what it means.

[pbleighton]

Quote

In the U.S.? Absolutely not.

Correct, but in the ACBL, you are required to pre-alert any very light opening system, which will convey this information.

Peter

[jillybean]

Your pass conveys special information, why shouldnt you disclose this?

[ppek]

jillybean2, on Jun 28 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

Your pass conveys special information, why shouldnt you disclose this?

I agree it conveys special information and that's why I am confused, because I also wouldn't call it conventional. It shows the hand to weak for opening.

Btw where should be the line?
Should also precision pair opening about 80% of 10 count unBAL hands alert pass?

[rbforster]

Apparently disclosing negative information is not typically required in the ACBL (such as the lack of 10-12 point hands in pass when you open all of these hands). You may end up mentioning something related (such as the light openers part) for other disclosure reasons.

jtfanclub, on Jun 28 2007, 10:45 AM, said:

I've had this discussion with Rulings before.  They don't want us to alert Passes where the call is nonforcing and the most likely hand it shows is weak.

I'm glad to hear this. It will mean I have one less thing to alert if I start playing a few sound-but-non-forcing passes (12-15 pts with certain hands) mixed in with the other 90% weak passes.

[Free]

I don't think you have to alert the pass itself, but you definitely have to prealert so your opponents know you play a light opening system. I mean, every pass conceils information: "unable to bid anything else". So if you have 10 kinds of hands where you can preempt with, you would have to explain that you can't have any of these types, as well as any other normal opening. This is not the point of alerting regulations...

[paulg]

Free, on Jun 28 2007, 06:02 PM, said:

I don't think you have to alert the pass itself, but you definitely have to prealert so your opponents know you play a light opening system. I mean, every pass conceils information: "unable to bid anything else". So if you have 10 kinds of hands where you can preempt with, you would have to explain that you can't have any of these types, as well as any other normal opening. This is not the point of alerting regulations...

Same would be true in Scotland.

In England there is no obligation to pre-alert (though no harm if you do) and I don't believe the pass would be alertable. It should be highlighted on the front of your convention card.

[Free]

Isn't pre-alerting uncommon systems a universal thing??? Djeez

[Gerben42]

Quote

Isn't pre-alerting uncommon systems a universal thing???  Djeez

I don't think there are rules that say you have to but it would be ethical to do so as a service to your opponents. Around here (South-Germany) almost no one looks at the CC I present to my opponents.

And this "Pass" is not alertable as it simply means I am too weak to open.

[david_c]

Free, on Jun 29 2007, 10:44 AM, said:

Isn't pre-alerting uncommon systems a universal thing??? Djeez

We don't have any regulations specifically about pre-alerting here in England. Many people who play unusual systems do make a point of doing it, but technically it's not compulsory. On the other hand, we do have regulations about convention cards, and if a pair playing an unusual system had failed to exchange convention cards properly you might expect the TD to take some action. The front of the convention card must contain all the things that opponents might need to know, so this basically amounts to the same thing as a pre-alert.

[dake50]

Have a similar problem. 4cM, weak NT, natural 2m.
Do I inform oppts that 1NT open/rebid has no 4cM? That reopening almost never seeks M-fit?
That OC's take advantage of no 4cM (likely) in partner's passed hand?
Defensive choice of lead/signal to that lead assume no 4cM??
These are all negative inferences available to a reader of our CC. And fully explained if asked.