[DWM]

Scoring: MP

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Playing a mini NT when P opens with 1NT do you bid 2C here looking to pass the reply or do you leave it in 1NT.

Would you make a different bid if playing teams?

[Gerben42]

I pass in teams and pairs. To bid Stayman with this shape I want 2NT to have play, for example opposite 10 - 12:

♠ QJ7
♥ QJ53
♦Q972
♣ A5

1NT - 2♣
2♦ - 2♥
2♠ - 2NT
Pass

1NT - 2♣
2♥ - 3♥
4♥ / Pass

1NT - 2♣
2♠ - Pass

[han]

2C at any form.

[Apollo81]

So many good things can happen if you bid Stayman. We can steal the contract in 2M. Diamonds can outscore notrump. The opps can bid over 2♦pp. Even if diamonds is worse than notrump, the opps can still miss their spade fit or we can go -100 against -120 or something.

[barmar]

To use garbage Stayman you usually should have 4-4 in the majors or 4-3 majors and 5 ♦. You don't want to pass 2♦ when it could be a 4-2 fit. And Gerben's first auction shows the danger with bidding 2♥ with your hand shape -- if opener has 3 ♠ and 2 ♥, you'll be forced to overbid to 2NT.

But just to contradict myself, passing 2♦ may not be THAT dangerous. You'll only end up in a bad fit if opener is exactly 3=3=2=5, while there are several distributions that include 4-card support.

[awm]

I like pass here. The queens argue for notrump play rather than a suit. It's not clear to me that stayman leads to a contract which will play for fewer tricks down than 1NT, and if opponents balance over 1NT they will often reach an inferior partial (say 2M in a 5-1 or 5-2) whereas a balance after my garbage stayman call (if they do balance) will probably reach a good spot for them.

[jtfanclub]

DWM, on Jun 26 2007, 07:54 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

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Playing a mini NT when P opens with 1NT do you bid 2C here looking to pass the reply or do you leave it in 1NT.

Would you make a different bid if playing teams?

It's probably the level, but I don't believe in using (true) Garbage Stayman with a weak or mini.

Let's suppose, for the moment, that there's no fit anywhere at the table. You're balanced, partner's balanced, it's not that unreasonable.

Bidding 2 clubs allows 4th hand to two-way, Xing 2 clubs for takeout and Xing opener's rebid for penalty. On the other hand, after 1NT-P-P-X, is that takeout or penalty, and can 2nd hand leave it in? And even if he does, you can just XX for scramble and you'll find your fit anyways- no harm done.

If I have a Garbage stayman hand like this one across a mini, and 1NT gets passed around, I have to exert extreme self control not to do the One No Trump Happy Dance once I put my cards on the table. Even if it's a trick worse than 2 of a major, who cares? We're playing it, they aren't, and down 1 is OK by me.

If it was a weak NT (12-15 or so), I'd be more tempted to Garbage out. Now I'm bidding to make, since we likely have half the points.

[pclayton]

I pass. Quacks want to play in NT. If I get doubled, hopefully we have the tools to get out to 2 red.

[han]

jtfanclub, on Jun 26 2007, 11:38 AM, said:

Let's suppose, for the moment, that there's no fit anywhere at the table. You're balanced, partner's balanced, it's not that unreasonable.

If you knew that there was no fit then you'd pass. But what if you do? You say "for the moment"", suggesting that you will talk about the case where we do have a fit later,but you don't.

Quote

If it was a weak NT (12-15 or so), I'd be more tempted to Garbage out.  Now I'm bidding to make, since we likely have half the points.

I can't follow you. A mini-notrump is weaker than a weak notrump, right? We have a poor 7-count, partner has 10-12, it is very unlikely that we have half the points.

[FrancesHinden]

jtfanclub, on Jun 26 2007, 05:38 PM, said:

If I have a Garbage stayman hand like this one across a mini, and 1NT gets passed around, I have to exert extreme self control not to do the One No Trump Happy Dance once I put my cards on the table. Even if it's a trick worse than 2 of a major, who cares? We're playing it, they aren't, and down 1 is OK by me.

Quite

I would pass 1NT every time. There's no strong reason to suppose this is a worse contract than wherever garbage Stayman would get us. It might be, but I think 1NT is just as likely to be right.

The strength of your opponents matters, however: many inexperienced partnerships know that a double of 1NT is for penalty, but play that a double of a Stayman 2C response is for clubs. That leaves them stuck after 1NT - P - 2C -? with their 2443 17-count. In fact, they are stuck again if they pass and 2M comes back to them, as they don't have a take-out double. They either have to pass or bid 2NT and you are out of the woods. So if oppo play double of 1NT as penalty but double of 2C as lead-directional, there is some merit in 2C.

However, many practised partnerships play the (IMO) superior method of double showing about 16+ balanced - a hand that would have doubled 1NT (at least against a mini or weak NT opening). Now you are worse off if you have responded 2C, becuase you have no chance of playing in partner's 5-card suit. If you pass, and LHO doubles, partner may be able to suggest an alternative contract; or you can redouble. If you bid 2C, LHO doubles, and partner has a 4-2-4-3, he is going to bid 2S and you aren't in the best spot; or-worse- he is 3235 (3226 even) and your best best is actually 2C.

[bid_em_up]

Assuming we are the not vul side, there is absolutely no reason that I can see to run until the opponents double and it gets left in for penalties. If you are not making them guess what to do after 1N p p ?, and instead going ahead and bidding garbage stayman with this holding, you simply aren't making the most effective use of the NT opening, imo.

You can reasonably go -2 undoubled for a likely good score @ MP. Minus 100 will score better than just about the opponents bid and make. And thats assuming they make it. They may even end up playing 2H!!

Once they double in passout, your runout structure should allow you (or partner) to find your best fit. Yes, you may be doubled now when you rest there, but if that's the case, you were probably being doubled no matter what you do initially.

jmoo.

[jtfanclub]

Hannie, on Jun 26 2007, 01:23 PM, said:

If you knew that there was no fit then you'd pass. But what if you do? You say "for the moment"", suggesting that you will talk about the case where we do have a fit later,but you don't.
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Quote

If it was a weak NT (12-15 or so), I'd be more tempted to Garbage out.  Now I'm bidding to make, since we likely have half the points.

I can't follow you. A mini-notrump is weaker than a weak notrump, right? We have a poor 7-count, partner has 10-12, it is very unlikely that we have half the points.

Sorry. If we have a fit, they most likely have a fit. If we play in 1NT when they have over half the points and a fit, I do the Happy Dance. If they double, we'll scramble and still most likely find our fit.
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If the NT was weak (12-15) and I had a 7 count, we have about half the count, so I feel safe looking for a fit at the 2 level. I wouldn't even be upset if the auction went:

1NT-P-2♣-2♠
X*

*takeout, showing 4 hearts.

Comments about that auction across a mini deleted for the young and pure at heart.

[bid_em_up]

jtfanclub, on Jun 26 2007, 02:29 PM, said:

If the NT was weak (12-15) and I had a 7 count, we have about half the count, so I feel safe looking for a fit at the 2 level.

Again, why do you want to run prior to actually being doubled? Especially in this case.

You have 1/2 the deck and are 12-15 opposite 7. You do have a QJ combination and two other queens. Your intermediate spots are certainly tolerable. You should not be running from 1N until you actually get doubled. You might even sit for the double. Your hand is not THAT bad (its not a rose garden either, but in context, it could be a LOT worse). At worst you are most likely -1 in 1N, but could easily be minus 2 in two of your suit. At best, you can easily be making 1N x'd+1.

I can see no advantage to running from 1N in anticipation of a double that may never come, and even if it does, it may or may not be left in. Make them try to penalize you first, then deal with it.

[jtfanclub]

bid_em_up, on Jun 26 2007, 04:15 PM, said:

Again, why do you want to run prior to actually being doubled? Especially in this case.

I apologize, I got the general mixed in with the specific. I would never use 'garbage' Stayman with a 7 count across a 10-12, for reasons already mentioned. There are 7 counts that I would use 'garbage' Stayman with across a 12-15 opener. I would do this because I would be bidding to improve the contract (expecting to make both 1NT and wherever we ended up), not because I was afraid of a double.

This specific hand is very no-trumpy, so I'd just leave it in 1NT.

[Echognome]

pclayton, on Jun 26 2007, 09:44 AM, said:

I pass. Quacks want to play in NT. If I get doubled, hopefully we have the tools to get out to 2 red.

We are NV. If I sit, my escape is easy enough: 2♣ and XX my way out if it's doubled. Why do I want to insist on a red suit? If partner has four spades, I don't mind ruffing the clubs with the short trump hand.

[bid_em_up]

jtfanclub, on Jun 26 2007, 04:23 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jun 26 2007, 04:15 PM, said:

Again, why do you want to run prior to actually being doubled? Especially in this case.

I apologize, I got the general mixed in with the specific. I would never use 'garbage' Stayman with a 7 count across a 10-12, for reasons already mentioned. There are 7 counts that I would use 'garbage' Stayman with across a 12-15 opener. I would do this because I would be bidding to improve the contract (expecting to make both 1NT and wherever we ended up), not because I was afraid of a double.

This specific hand is very no-trumpy, so I'd just leave it in 1NT.

In a case where you were holding a seven count, 4-3-5-1 or 4-4-5-0, I can understand using garbage stayman opposite a 12-15 NT or a 10-12 NT.

That may have been what you were trying to say, but I didnt read it that way.