[firmit]

The weak NT range 10-12hp (13hp with 4333) allows 5422 but not with 5M.

Holding this hand:
♠ A6
♥ A1065
♦ Q9852
♣ 62

What to open? I got my 10hp, but I also got an opening hand according to my system. The weak NT is supposed to be preemptive, right? So if I got a hand which I can open at the 1-level normally - should I do that?

1♥ 4+ 9-15hp (26+zar) rebidding ♦ later show 9 cards in suit, not necessarily longer hearts.
2♥ is 5♥+4minor 7-10hp (22-25zar).
1NT is 10-12(13) but also implies 22-25zar ( not strict ).

How should I open this hand - I don't know how to set the "rules". I got two descriptive bids - one is more preemptive, but may be a slight underbid(?). Need some good advice. Thanks.

[Vilgan]

I play 10-13 NT's, and the NT is only partly preemptive. It is also great in that it describes your hand quickly to your partner so they can start doing things. Opening the NT here makes it harder for the opps to find spades, but it also makes it harder for your side to judge what strain to compete in if it becomes a partscore battle.

If you have a system that can show the 4 hearts AND the 5 diamonds I would do that rather than open 1 NT. You have a suit oriented hand (aces) with shape. If describing the shape is going to be difficult if you get a spade overcall, I would open 1 NT.

Hardly an expert.. but been playing weak NT's a while. G'luck

Eric

[gwnn]

I think your ODR is pathetic. 1NT it is.

[helene_t]

I think any rebid after 1♦-1♠ would be pathetic. 1NT it is.

[firmit]

gwnn, on Jun 22 2007, 04:18 PM, said:

I think your ODR is pathetic. 1NT it is.

Excuse me?

[gwnn]

your offense-to-defense ratio is pathetic

aces are neutral, but long and bad suits are really defensive (because your assets will go into your short suits)

I think

xx
AQ9x
AT8xx
xx

is a good 1♥ bid.

also

xx
KQJx
KJT98
xx.

NOT

Ax
ATxx
Q98xx
xx

[Apollo81]

I'd recommend opening 1NT on everything possible except for 12 HCP 4-2 or 4-4 majors hands.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I think the mayor problem is the question,
what to rebid. Switch the red suits, and you
have no rebid problem.

Open 1NT and be done with it, except partner
asks you to bid again.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

It wouldn't occur to me that this was an opening bid: in a strong club system, or other limited-opening, maybe, but given the already wide range of standard methods, I think calling this an opening bid is asking for trouble, but that is just my old-fogey side coming out, I guess.

Anyway, as a long-time 10-12 player, this is a clear 1N for me... altho since I play a form of relay after an artificial gf 2♦ response, and the structure doesn't allow me to show 5422, I'm going to tell partner (if he asks) that I'm 4-4 in the reds... the method doesn't then allow a further shape relay.

[jdonn]

gwnn, on Jun 22 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

your offense-to-defense ratio is pathetic

That is a gross overstatement. If the 98 of diamonds were small and the ace of hearts were the KJ of clubs, then it would be true.

[FrancesHinden]

It's a matter of partnership agreement.
I play a 10-13 1NT opening 1st NV, 5-card major or 6-card minor, 5422 (not both majors) all allowed, and our general agreement is

- If you have a normal opening bid with a 5-card major (roughly 12+ HCP), open 1major
- Otherwise open 1NT

(your definition of a 'normal opening bid' doesn't appear to be the same as mine, however)

[mikestar]

To me this hand isn't worth its nominal 26 Zar points due to the weakness of the diamonds--yes 98 is better than 43 would be but is not nearly as good as as it would be with another high card (A, K, or J).

In general, I deduct 1 point for a long suit with only 1 high card and 2 points for a suit with no high cards. That would adjust this hand to 24 Zars, which I would up to 25 due to the usefulness of the ♥T and the ♦98.

Zar himself doesn't make this adjustment--he adjusts for honor location in partner's bid suit and in the case of unguarded honors, but the failure to distinguish between ♠KQx ♥xxxxx and ♠xxx ♥KQxxx is a a flaw of the Zar method.

So I would prefer to open a strong (for suit play) 1NT to a shaded 1♥. If your red suits were reversed, I don't mind 2♥.

[firmit]

mikestar: good point! Zar gives extra for points concentration, but he does not say anything about reduction - only when there is a misfit.

[keylime]

1H playing canape, otherwise 1NT, due to systemic inferences.

[Edmunte1]

This doesn't qualify for 1 level opening (no rebid after 1♠ response). So pass or 1nt are choices. Playing 10-13 NT ( i prefer 11-13 and some good tens) has no only a preemptive role, but also a constructive one, the main inferences being:

-if you pass, your partner won't play you for 10+-13 balanced
-you reach fast your part score
-you have an easy constructive bidding
-if you open with 1m , partner will asume you have an unbalanced hand or a 14+ balanced hand
So 1nt seems the normal choice

[awm]

This problem is going to come up with a lot of (42)(52) type hand patterns. Suppose you have such a distribution. Then your ZAR points are 12 just for shape.

An average 10 hcp hand has 3 controls. This gives you 25 ZAR already. With 11 points or two aces you're already at 26. So my point is that:

Most hands with (24)(25) distribution and 10-12 hcp will have 26+ ZAR

This leaves you with the following reasonable options:

(1) Base your notrump range on ZAR points. Say it's something like 21-25 ZAR. This means you will open some (24)(25) shapes with 8 or 9 hcp 1NT.

(2) Remove the (24)(25) patterns from 1NT. Open them with 1M (canape) or pass. Opening 1NT will deny holding more than one doubleton.

(3) Accept that your 1NT opening is based on high card points whereas your other openings are based on ZAR points, and that this means there will be some overlap between possible openings. In this case I recommend to open in a suit when your points are concentrated in one or two suits, and to open 1NT with strong doubletons. The example hand would open 1NT, but something like xx Axxx AQxxx xx would open in the major.

[jdeegan]

No reason I can see not to open 1NT - it is good you don't have any minor honors in your short suits. I can offer three observations about opening 5-4-2-2 hands with one 10-12 HCP NT.

(1) the LOTT works just fine for 5-4-2-2 hands. Your odds of not having an eight card fit are 6% versus 9% when you open a 4-3-3-3 hand with 1NT. When you open a 10 HCP NT first seat, the opponents will have a significant edge in high cards about 1/3 of the time. You may have to escape into your eight card fit, so it's great that your odds of having one is higher than average.

(2) once in a while your partner will have a mirror hand with the same two doubletons as you have. If the opponents double, your escape is easy, but when the points are evenly split and it goes all pass, the opponents may run the first ten tricks. I still remember the first time this happened to me.

(3) minor honors in your doubletons are potential bad news, esp. if you are vul. and the opponents are capable. These may become negative adjustments in your LOTT equation. The opponents double, and you escape into an eight card fit only to find yourself in a 14 or 15 trick hand.

[firmit]

awm, on Jun 23 2007, 12:35 AM, said:

(1) Base your notrump range on ZAR points. Say it's something like 21-25 ZAR. This means you will open some (24)(25) shapes with 8 or 9 hcp 1NT.

(2) Remove the (24)(25) patterns from 1NT. Open them with 1M (canape) or pass. Opening 1NT will deny holding more than one doubleton.

(3) Accept that your 1NT opening is based on high card points whereas your other openings are based on ZAR points, and that this means there will be some overlap between possible openings. In this case I recommend to open in a suit when your points are concentrated in one or two suits, and to open 1NT with strong doubletons. The example hand would open 1NT, but something like xx Axxx AQxxx xx would open in the major.

(1) I do not feel comfortable opening 1NT with less than 10hcp, even with 22-25zp. If I don't have another option, I'll pass.
(2) I'd like 1M to always show 26+zp ( 25+zp ♠ ). If 10-12(13)hp, 22-25zp = 1NT
(3) I agree very much with this. This hand gave me 10hp and 26zp. But as pointed out in a previous post, there is no deduction for the bad 5card suit, which may be in order - however Zar adds 1pt when 10-14hp concentrated within two suits. So I am landing on 1NT with this hand.

Good answer - ty.

ps: I don't know if I use the word "canape" correctly - my default meaning is that I may have a longer minor suit.

[hrothgar]

firmit, on Jun 23 2007, 06:43 PM, said:

I don't know if I use the word "canape" correctly - my default meaning is that I may have a longer minor suit.

Personally, I would describe that as a "majors first" opening style.

A true canape type method involves systemically opening in your shorter suit when holding a 2 suited hand.