[jillybean]

Oh, I thought perhaps we both over bid

[neilkaz]

Once again, ROFL at the thought that 3♥ is a splinter when all that was listed on PD's profile or discussed was SAYC and B/I's (OK I's here) are playing together! ROFL at the thought that 3♥ is a splinter when you realize that the opps have to have 11♥ and both neglected to bid them and one freely bid 4♦.

This is the B/I forum and whether you play 3♥ as a splinter over 1♣ really shouldn't matter here since Katherine allready stated she was virtually certain it was weak and most clearly it cannot be a splinter.

We'll all get the most out of this B/I and it will be most educational to those brave B/I's like Katherine, Joc and a few others who list their disasters and confusions here for us all to criticize so that they, we and other can hopefully learn from the fine disussions that follow.

Off my soapbox, now and please take no offence anyone. I mod or have mod'd forums in other activities such as backgammon, computer gaming,chess and physical training and have felt the need to make posts like this before in subforums that aren't intended for adv/exp.

My next post will concern the bidding that followed the opp's 4♦ .. neilkaz ..

[mr1303]

If 3H was natural and pre-emptive, I would double 4D, since you have excellent defence.

The pull to 4H is the type of bid I see time and time again, and it makes me really angry.

I once had the auction:

3D (3H) ?

and I held

Kx
AKQJxx
x
Qxxx

I made the obvious double, and partner (bless him/her) pulled it.

[jillybean]

neilkaz, on Jun 19 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

Once again, ROFL at the thought that 3♥ is a splinter when all that was listed on PD's profile or discussed was SAYC and B/I's (OK I's here) are playing together!

Intermediate and Expert thankyou its no wonder everyone is confused about their skill level.

[neilkaz]

OK PD's 3♥ looks like a routine 3♥ PJS to me. I like to play that these are hands that aren't any stronger than the bottom end of a simple 1/1 response. Then when you respond 1M then 2M and then continue 3M you have a better hand than this, and one that basically doesn't need to preempt.

After 4♦ I don't care for the double and I think it is poor IMP odds to be doubling a 4m part score to game when you cannot have a decent chance to set it 2 tricks !! Here's why...(assuming BBO is IMPed like this http://jbridge.net/Help/Scoring.htm )

Assume 4D is off one. If you pass you score 100 and if you double you score 200 for a gain of 3 IMP.

Assume 4D makes 10 tricks. If you pass you are -130 but if you double you are -710 ! and have lost 11 IMP. Risking 11 to make 3 seems bad odds here with jb's hand as it has defence but really contains no big suprises for declarer. Yes, she has good chances to set 4Dx, but is it enough to risk 11 to make 3 ? No way !

OK lets assume 4D is off two. If you pass you get 200 and if you double you get 500 for a gain of 7 IMP. So now you are risking 11 to gain 7 and still want to be a clear favorite to set 4D two tricks. I honestly don't think jb's hand opposite a PJS is favorite to set 4Dx two tricks. Perhaps 50/50 at best.

Other reasons why I truly don't care for the double at IMPs. 1) 4D is not usually a very good place to play and the vul opps just may take a shot at 5D for a vul game. (perhaps you PD is void in D and LHO has a few D's). Clearly you'd love to double 5D, but when you double 4D that option no longer exists and you score 300 fewer points when 4Dx goes off than you would when 5Dx is set badly.

Tactical reasons are also here. Even if jb was 100% certain her pickup's 3H was a PJS, can said pickup be 100% certain jb knows that ? I doubt it, and here pickup may have been confused and made the awful pull to 4H.

Perhaps the only reason to double 4D is so that PD doesn't bid 4H, but after PD's PJS this certainly isn't a forcing pass situation (esp at IMP) and PD should no to preempt and then shut up.

Most definately I don't double 4D in this situation at IMP and I don't expect the PJS hand to contribute anything when I do double.

Now..PD's pulling of jb's double to 4H is simply disgusting. Bidding the same hand twice and at a higher level and not realizing that the Qx in D may help on defence !(here is gets jb's side a trump trick). Also placing no faith in PD who may actually have something like KTx in D and other fine defensive values and crush 4Dx for 800.

Honestly after PD pulls my penalty double to 4H (and with pickup intermediates this is clearly very penalty oriented rather than some esoteric card showing), I am leaving after the hand unless he has a really good hand for 3H and makes 4H. (in that case we'll discuss his jump to 3H and what he meant)

Just my opinion .. neilkaz ..

[skjaeran]

The default meaning of 3♥ varies around the world.
Past beginner level it would be a splinter undiscussed here in Norway. If you'd discuss the meaning of the bid with a pick-up partner here, the discussion would be whether it promised a void or if a singleton was allowed.

[neilkaz]

skaeran, on Jun 19 2007, 02:25 PM, said:

The default meaning of 3♥ varies around the world.
Past beginner level it would be a splinter undiscussed here in Norway. If you'd discuss the meaning of the bid with a pick-up partner here, the discussion would be whether it promised a void or if a singleton was allowed.

Re: splinters..I play with lots of good pickups, quite a few experts, and an occasional intermediate.

Here in the US if playing SAYC on BBO I'd assume 3♥ is a PJS (certainly when I look at my stiff ♥), but if the bidding goes something like 1♠ opening and PD responds 4♦, I will certainly assume a splinter even if SAYC agreed to and undiscussed since PD may assume splinters like that are so obvious.

.. neilkaz ..

[foo]

Well I certainly got this one wrong! LOL.

Good thing I amended my 1st post to suggest the "safety play" of passing 4♦

...and neilkaz's is 100% correct. Penalty X'ing 4♦ is (with credit to mikeh) "insane".
Nice analysis of the risk factors, neilkaz.

[Fluffy]

cherdano, on Jun 19 2007, 05:20 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Jun 19 2007, 11:09 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Jun 19 2007, 09:07 AM, said:

Bidding your hand twice had no sense as always.

I will have this tattooed on my forehead and maybe Fred could make to pass button bigger.

I think Fluffy's remark was about the 4♥ bid, which is completely 1000% absolutely absurdely wrong.

Yes, I reread my post and have edited to make it clearer.