[Fluffy]

South(Delaler) bids 1♦
West overcalls 2♦ (majors)
North passes
East bids 1♠ (insufficent bid)
South passes (acepting the call?)
West tells East that 1♠ is not sufficent
East bids 2♠ then


Since 1♠ was already accepted (I think) 2♠ is an out of turn bid?

what are the penalties for an in middle out fo turn bid?

[helene_t]

While technically an out-of-turn bid, I think this 2♠ is pretty innocent. East's 1♠ and South's pass stand.

The penalties for out-of-turn bids have been written with completely different situations in mind. Sometimes one must apply the spirit, rather than the letter, of the law.

[gwnn]

I love Fluffy's stories

[Walddk]

Roland

This post has been edited by Walddk: 2007-June-15, 05:16

[blackshoe]

Fluffy, on Jun 15 2007, 05:43 AM, said:

South(Delaler) bids 1♦
West overcalls 2♦ (majors)
North passes
East bids 1♠ (insufficent bid)
South passes (acepting the call?)
West tells East that 1♠ is not sufficent
East bids 2♠ then


Since 1♠ was already accepted (I think) 2♠ is an out of turn bid?

what are the penalties for an in middle out fo turn bid?

Well, the first thing you do is call the director.

Law27A said:

Any insufficient bid may be accepted (treated as legal) at the option of offender's LHO. It is accepted if that player calls.

Now,

Law 25A said:

Until his partner makes a call, a player may substitute his intended call for an inadvertent call but only if he does so, or attempts to do so, without pause for thought. If legal, his last call stands without penalty; if illegal, it is subject to the applicable Law.

So I would ask questions of East. If I determine there was no pause for thought, 2♠ stands. If I decide otherwise, this law does not apply, and we go to

Law 25B said:

Until LHO calls, a call may be substituted when Section A does not apply...

But LHO has already called, so this law doesn't apply either.

I would cancel 2♠ and tell the players (a) don't try to correct an irregularity yourself, call the director and ( when your RHO accepts your partner's IB by calling, keep your mouth shut. No penalty. Auction proceeds from South's pass over 1♠, or from East's 2♠ if I decide Law 25A applies.

[Echognome]

I disagree with some of the above posters. How can you allow 2♠ with no penalties? You should simply treat the 2♠ as a bid out of turn. The prior insufficient bid of 1♠ has been accepted, so, for all intents and purposes, we simply carry on with the auction from there.

Thus, South should be able to accept the 1♠ call. If you carry on from 2♠, then South does not have that option. So, how can that be right?

So the procedure should be as if East bid 2♠ out of turn.

Does that sound harsh? Maybe, but that should teach West for trying to make his own rulings at the table.

[jtfanclub]

Echognome, on Jun 15 2007, 04:57 PM, said:

I disagree with some of the above posters. How can you allow 2♠ with no penalties? You should simply treat the 2♠ as a bid out of turn. The prior insufficient bid of 1♠ has been accepted, so, for all intents and purposes, we simply carry on with the auction from there.

Thus, South should be able to accept the 1♠ call. If you carry on from 2♠, then South does not have that option. So, how can that be right?

So the procedure should be as if East bid 2♠ out of turn.

Does that sound harsh? Maybe, but that should teach West for trying to make his own rulings at the table.

That's certainly technically correct. No question that if it were a tournament I was directing, that I'd tell the 2♠ bidder that they can change their call to anything legal, but their partner is now barred from the auction, and give extra penalties if this prevented his partner from making a move towards game which would have hurt them.

In a club game, I'd just ask South if he wants to make the bid 1♠ or 2♠, his choice, and go on from there. Unless N/S complained, of course.

[Echognome]

jtfanclub, on Jun 15 2007, 02:32 PM, said:

That's certainly technically correct. No question that if it were a tournament I was directing, that I'd tell the 2♠ bidder that they can change their call to anything legal, but their partner is now barred from the auction, and give extra penalties if this prevented his partner from making a move towards game which would have hurt them.

In a club game, I'd just ask South if he wants to make the bid 1♠ or 2♠, his choice, and go on from there. Unless N/S complained, of course.

I'm all for giving some slack at the club. It's probably a topic in itself how much one should give, lest players think they are abiding by the laws. I'm just wondering why everyone is assuming this is from a club night? The last I checked, Gonzalo has played internationally and usually plays in high-level events.

[cherdano]

Echognome, on Jun 15 2007, 04:51 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jun 15 2007, 02:32 PM, said:

That's certainly technically correct.  No question that if it were a tournament I was directing, that I'd tell the 2♠ bidder that they can change their call to anything legal, but their partner is now barred from the auction, and give extra penalties if this prevented his partner from making a move towards game which would have hurt them.

In a club game, I'd just ask South if he wants to make the bid 1♠ or 2♠, his choice, and go on from there.  Unless N/S complained, of course.

I'm all for giving some slack at the club. It's probably a topic in itself how much one should give, lest players think they are abiding by the laws. I'm just wondering why everyone is assuming this is from a club night? The last I checked, Gonzalo has played internationally and usually plays in high-level events.

Last time I checked, internationals don't make insufficient bids and then correct them after LHO has already accepted the insufficient bid. I don't check very often though, things may have changed...

[Echognome]

cherdano, on Jun 15 2007, 03:36 PM, said:

Echognome, on Jun 15 2007, 04:51 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jun 15 2007, 02:32 PM, said:

That's certainly technically correct.  No question that if it were a tournament I was directing, that I'd tell the 2♠ bidder that they can change their call to anything legal, but their partner is now barred from the auction, and give extra penalties if this prevented his partner from making a move towards game which would have hurt them.

In a club game, I'd just ask South if he wants to make the bid 1♠ or 2♠, his choice, and go on from there.  Unless N/S complained, of course.

I'm all for giving some slack at the club. It's probably a topic in itself how much one should give, lest players think they are abiding by the laws. I'm just wondering why everyone is assuming this is from a club night? The last I checked, Gonzalo has played internationally and usually plays in high-level events.

Last time I checked, internationals don't make insufficient bids and then correct them after LHO has already accepted the insufficient bid. I don't check very often though, things may have changed...

People make all kinds of mistakes at all levels when it comes to the laws. You don't believe me? Just check out the appeals' booklets from, say, the Spring Foursomes on the EBU website. I have no doubt I could find similar documents from the ACBL (I'm just not as familiar with them). I chose the Spring Foursomes as it's probably the best field for an event they have in England.

Note also the Appeals Booklets do not contain *all* or anywhere close to the actual amount of rulings, rather only those rulings that were appealed.

[Fluffy]

This hand is from a local club, of course we didn't even call director, after 2 minutes I gave up on explaining what they were doing wrong and just pased 2♠. But anyway I've seen similar things around on more important tourneys. The tournaments I mostly play are wide field 3 sessions MPs. and Internationals might not make that mistakes (once a year or less maybe), but their opponents do.

It always surprised me that when beginners make an insufficent call, they will 95% just bid 1 more, with no penalty, showing their 'unavaible' bid to partner while preempting you on the way, they benefit from it!.

This is so widely different from artificial insufficent bids, supose for example that you open 1♦ 100% with 4 cards, then 1♣ is 2 when 4432.

The bidding goes: RHO 1♦, you don't notice and bid 1♣.

Well 1♣ is conventional, and the penalty is now that partner can make no bid at all during the whole bidding, you have to decide your final contract just now.

I say this because I bid twice 2NT -pass-2♣, and having to decide the final contract with 5-4 in the majors was a disaster on both :/.

[blackshoe]

Echognome, on Jun 15 2007, 04:57 PM, said:

I disagree with some of the above posters. How can you allow 2♠ with no penalties? You should simply treat the 2♠ as a bid out of turn. The prior insufficient bid of 1♠ has been accepted, so, for all intents and purposes, we simply carry on with the auction from there.

Thus, South should be able to accept the 1♠ call. If you carry on from 2♠, then South does not have that option. So, how can that be right?

So the procedure should be as if East bid 2♠ out of turn.

Does that sound harsh? Maybe, but that should teach West for trying to make his own rulings at the table.

If you read Law 31B carefully, you will see that East's 2♠ bid is, under the law, to be treated as a change of call rather than a BOOT.

I stand by my earlier ruling.

[blackshoe]

Fluffy, on Jun 15 2007, 08:36 PM, said:

This hand is from a local club, of course we didn't even call director, after 2 minutes I gave up on explaining what they were doing wrong and just pased 2♠. But anyway I've seen similar things around on more important tourneys. The tournaments I mostly play are wide field 3 sessions MPs. and Internationals might not make that mistakes (once a year or less maybe), but their opponents do.

It always surprised me that when beginners make an insufficent call, they will 95% just bid 1 more, with no penalty, showing their 'unavaible' bid to partner while preempting you on the way, they benefit from it!.

This is so widely different from artificial insufficent bids, supose for example that you open 1♦ 100% with 4 cards, then 1♣ is 2 when 4432.

The bidding goes: RHO 1♦, you don't notice and bid 1♣.

Well 1♣ is conventional, and the penalty is now that partner can make no bid at all during the whole bidding, you have to decide your final contract just now.

I say this because I bid twice 2NT -pass-2♣, and having to decide the final contract with 5-4 in the majors was a disaster on both :/.

Fluffy, it is not your job to explain what opponents are doing wrong. Just call the TD. As for "of course we didn't call the TD", well, that's just wrong, club or not. You don't have to be nasty when you call - you can even, as I saw suggested somewhere earlier today, try to convince the opponents to call. But when attention has been called to an irregularity, the TD must be called.

In your second paragraph, you assume that beginning players are always showing a hand that doesn't fit the sufficient bid, but does fit the insufficient bid. It is far more likely that the beginner just made a dumb mistake, through lack of attention or mispulling a bidding card. And if they benefit, it's because the offender's partner has taken advantage of UI, which is a separate infraction, and should be dealt with separately. Aside from that, where neither the IB nor the lowest sufficient bid in the same denomination are not conventional, there is no penalty when the offender corrects to the lowest sufficient bid. That's the law, and the TD will tell the players that. Of course most beginners (and in most cases, everybody else) will choose that correction. Wtp?

I'm not sure I see your point in the last few paragraphs, either. The law is what it is. So?

[skjaeran]

blackshoe, on Jun 16 2007, 06:13 AM, said:

If you read Law 31B carefully, you will see that East's 2♠ bid is, under the law, to be treated as a change of call rather than a BOOT.

I stand by my earlier ruling.

I beg to differ.

Law 31B: "When the offender has bid at his partner’s turn to call, or at his LHO’s turn to call if the offender has not previously called, (11) (penalty) offender’s partner must pass whenever it is his turn to call (see Law 23 when the pass damages the non-offending side), and the lead penalties of Law 26 may apply." ((11) Later bids at LHO's turn to call are treated as changes of call, and Law 25 applies.)

The 2♠ bid happened after LHO had passed, thus at partner's turn to call. This is a BOOT, not a change of call.

[Sancho]

skaeran, on Jun 16 2007, 03:27 AM, said:

The 2♠ bid happened after LHO had passed, thus at partner's turn to call. This is a BOOT, not a change of call.

Correct. But still, we have to check whether L25A applies, ie determine whether 1♠ was a mechanical error as in pulling the wrong card from the bidding box while intending to bid 2♠ all the time.

If it was a "slip of mind" rather than a mechanical error, which seems likely, then we apply L31 to the bid out of turn. As the OP asked specifically about the penalties, I will spell the proceure out:

First, South gets the option to accept 2♠. If he does, it is now his turn (again) and there is no further penalty. If he doesn't, 2♠ is cancelled and the auction proceeds at West's turn (who must now pass whenever it is his turn to call).

As to the idea of not applying these laws because 2♠ was "harmless" or "innocent": It is actually possible to waive the penalties for a cause, but only upon request of the non-offending side (L81C8). Here, that point is somewhat academical because if South wants to steer the auction back into normal waters, he can just as well condone 2♠, and everything is back to normal.

[Fluffy]

blackshoe, on Jun 16 2007, 04:26 AM, said:

Fluffy, it is not your job to explain what opponents are doing wrong. Just call the TD. As for "of course we didn't call the TD", well, that's just wrong, club or not. You don't have to be nasty when you call - you can even, as I saw suggested somewhere earlier today, try to convince the opponents to call. But when attention has been called to an irregularity, the TD must be called.

LOL. You have no clue what you are talking about, call the director when you are proffesional on my local club with 70+ average age. This is ridicoulous.

[FrancesHinden]

Yeah, the main thing you don't do is rule yourself.
Either you just let it go (by accepting the 2S bid in this instance) or you call the director.

I was playing at a local (particularly weak) club once... I had already let a couple of revokes go, and then I opened 1H and LHO overcalled 1H. We told her to take her 1H bid back, so she changed it to a double, which of course ended the auction... I went 1 off for -200 and a bottom. That's just 'rub of the green'

[blackshoe]

Fluffy, on Jun 16 2007, 07:35 AM, said:

blackshoe, on Jun 16 2007, 04:26 AM, said:

Fluffy, it is not your job to explain what opponents are doing wrong. Just call the TD. As for "of course we didn't call the TD", well, that's just wrong, club or not. You don't have to be nasty when you call - you can even, as I saw suggested somewhere earlier today, try to convince the opponents to call. But when attention has been called to an irregularity, the TD must be called.

LOL. You have no clue what you are talking about, call the director when you are proffesional on my local club with 70+ average age. This is ridicoulous.

No clue, eh? You know me so well. NOT.

I've told you what the law says. Now you go and do as you damn well please - you will anyway.

BTW, I have no idea what the average age is in the clubs around here, but I"m 60, and most players are considerably older than I am.

[Fluffy]

I don't know you, I know MY local. Maybe it has nothign to do with age, after all there are other clubs where people apply the laws strictly and they don't have average age much lower.

At my local people don't care much for the result, just wanna enjoy the evening, discussing with opponents and/or directors is not considered funny for any of them.