[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 1♥    Pass  2♥    Dbl
 Pass  3♣    3♥    Pass
 Pass  Dbl   Pass  3♠
 Dbl   RDbl  Pass  4♣
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass
 


Hi we bid to 4 clubs x

my x of 3 hearts was penalty orientated

my xx of 3 spades was get me out of here (what should I have done)

I ended up playing 4 clubs x

can it be made easily or with luck and how?

[mr1303]

Here are my thoughts:

1) Double as South is off this planet. Either bid spades now or never. No third choice

2) I would pass 3S. Partner got himself into this mess. Let him get himself out of it. At least he has to play it....

3) If X of 3H is penalty (I think should be) then partner has a pass.

4) I very much doubt 4C X can be made.

[mikeh]

S was insane.

N was insane

The defenders were insane

The result was random.

Doubling 2♥ is essentially the same as a double of 1♥: it is a takeout double and shows opening or near opening strength with support for the unbid suits (or some very, very strong hand)


I very much doubt that I could have brought myself to bid 3♣. Opposite Axxx x Axxx Axxx, I'd need to be in game and slam has a play. Of course, he needn't have that good a hand, but to bid 3♣ is insane... it's what you'd bid on xxx xxx xx Jxxxx (assuming no gadgets here). Either I'd pass or I'd bid 3♥ then 4♣ or maybe just 4♣ right away... I am not spending much time thinking about this, because the whole auction is (to coin a phrase) insane.

Having heard 3♥ come back to me, of course I have to bid again... I;d be thanking the bridge gods for not passing me out in 3♣. Whether double is penalty or 'extra values, do something intelligent' is a matter of style. Either way, double is not insane (at last)

Partner's 3♠ bid is ok (I have to hold my nose when writing that, since his original double was..ins....), but the pull is correct as an emergency rescue from the consequences of the first double: you can hardly have a hand that can set 3♥ opposite his hand and only bid 3♣ the first time. Funny: he is running because you grossly underbid opposite his gross overbid.

Redouble was... you guessed it.....

The defence was ......

These auctions scream for a trump lead... and to duck the ♠A.... words fail me.... try making it on A and a trump... lead a ♠, they rise to switch to a ♦. You win, cash the ♠, hook the ♥, pitch 2♦s and ruff a ♦ or a heart, but you still have a red loser and a trump loser (assuming a 3-2 split) and you have lost both black aces already.

[jdonn]

Wow I think you were completely harsh on north Mike. 3♣ is an underbid but not by a ton, the heart values are clearly not where you want them and I don't care for the spade shortness at all. Partner never has a perfect takeout double, he tends to be shorter in your long suit and has kings queens and jacks, not only aces. Saying it's what you would bid with a yarb doesn't really matter since partner will never assume you have nothing. After that everything north did (doubling 3♥ and redoubling 3♠) was perfectly normal. How could you call the redouble insane, should north let south rot in 3♠X, or rot himself in 3NT when his partner obviously has nothing? Just because your partner has been insane this auction (agreed) doesn't mean we stop playing bridge to punish them.

[Echognome]

Whether 3♣ is an underbid depends a lot on agreements. For me this is a lebensohl situation in my regular partnerships. So in one of them I would bid 3♣ showing a good hand with clubs, and in another I would bid 3♠ showing a good hand with clubs (since we play a form of transfer lebensohl). All weak hands would go through 2NT (along with the stronger hands that typically go through 2NT).

[dcvetkov]

Mike loves to use the word insane lol........ Maybe you can start looking for other word that delivers the same message, Mike;)

But I agree with him 100% so I wont repeat... I can see even one more possibility, passing 2H doubled;). it can score a bunch

[mikeh]

ok, I was too harsh on North... 3♣ wasn't insane, altho I still think that it as very poor.... it was late in a long day, so i got a little carried away

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings...altho it's not as if no-one has ever used such language, or stronger, with respect to some of my bids in real life

[Codo]

I join the chorus with a slightly different tune:

1. The double was insane
2. 3 Club was insane if this was not lebensohlish. Else it was fine
3. If 3 Club was weak and natural, the double of 3 Heart was take out. You cannot have a weak hand and a penalty double at the same time. If 3 Club was lebensohlish, the double was penatly and fine.
4. 3 Spade was as good as his first double. No, it was worse. Is there a word for even more insane then insane?
5. XX was lucky to be understood.
6. 4 Club was the first good bid from south.
7. You have no chance in 4 Club, but your nice opps helped you. After an obvious trump lead, you are on your way to 2 or 3 down and even after a Heart lead you are one down.

[helene_t]

Dbl was insane. 3♣ is probably an underbid (unless it's positive (Lebehnsol) and p is known to dbl very light in this situation). The rest of the auction is OK.

I wouldn't dare to dbl 3♥, though, unless I'm sure it's understood as 100% penalties. Not enough to gain at IMPs to outwiegh the risk that partner runs.

[helene_t]

sceptic, on Jun 15 2007, 02:45 PM, said:

ok, I accept all critisism, but I still want to know one thing that I struggle to understand

take any auction, and partner splinters in hearts, (assume I have the same holding in hearts) with my heart holding devaluves my hand against my pard known shortage in hearts, why can I not use that same principle on devaluing my holding to bid 3 clubs, (we were not playing Lebensohl)

That's true, but still you have a lot of what it would take to make 3NT opposite a normal t/o double of 2♥. If you don't play Lebensohl, you could bid 2N which would be a more positive bid, then.

[jdonn]

sceptic, on Jun 15 2007, 07:45 AM, said:

ok, I accept all critisism, but I still want to know one thing that I struggle to understand

take any auction, and partner splinters in hearts, (assume I have the same holding in hearts) with my heart holding devaluves my hand against my pard known shortage in hearts, why can I not use that same principle on devaluing my holding to bid 3 clubs, (we were not playing Lebensohl)

You CAN. That's why I think people are being very hard on you. Especially since good players don't usually play 2NT natural in your spot, if the choice is between 3♣ or forcing to game, than I definitely prefer 3♣.

[Fluffy]

As most of the problems you post Wayne your bidding has logic, but there is always someone on your table who deserve to be banned from bridge for a while

2NT, 3♣, 3NT, all are possible, they depend on partnership agreements, wich you probably don't have, so its just a coin toss.