[PedroG]

Hi all,

Well I told I would abuse of the generosity of the good people of the forum...

I just missed another grand slam, I hate that

Scoring: IMP

---

I was at West seat

East South West North
1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥ - P
3♦ - 4♣ - 4♥ - All Pass

Grand Slam missed

What could I have done different, I'm a "Novice" so not that many slam conventions available, and tought that before going on to the Blackwood would had to establish trump...

and that's the reason why I went to 4♥ instead of the 4NT...

Also I can't understand the overcall's of the ops, is that any method that I don't known, or is only to bug (done effective) the grand slam

Thanks all for the enlight answers
Pedro

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would suggest, to first look for an bidding seq.
reaching 6H, playing a making small slam is better
than playing game.

Another option would be to try to get South, who
bid like a maniac, depending on vulnerability,
4C and 4S are both -4, i.e. you receive either
800 or 1100, which is also quite ok,
and the defence is not hard, to achieve this:

West can make a forcing passs, North will double.
If West removes this to 4H, than West shows add.
strength and interest in more, East can than bid 4NT
followed by 6H.
Forcing pass is an important weapon, but needs
discussion, even real World Class players, not playing
in regular partnerships, will have misunderstanings.

And finally, if the auction gets heaviliy competitive
and space is scare, you will quite often miss a slam,
thats ok, accept it, thats why they are in the auction,
... and you as well (but hopefully not, when we play
against each other).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[awm]

The west hand is really strong. You have a source of tricks in hearts, two top diamond honors that have to be working opposite partner's 6+ card suit, and first round control of clubs. Pretty much any hand for opener that includes the diamond ace (basically marked) and a spade control should make six of a red suit.

I'd try 5♣ here, hopefully agreeing diamonds and focusing partner's attention on the spade suit.

South's 1♠ bid is pretty normal with some shape and such a strong suit. South wants to get a spade lead against a possible 3NT contract, and suggest a spade sacrifice against a possible 4♥ when partner has the right hand. I'm sure some would pass the south hand, or would bid 2♠, or would bid 2♥ (spades and a minor), but it's certainly reasonable to call 1♠ with this hand. The 4♣ bid on the other hand is overboard and somewhat ridiculous.

[PedroG]

Hi,

When I got the hand, and counted 18 HCP + at least 12HCP points from 1♦ partner opening...

I knewn it was something above game or at least I would want to try 30 HCP must try at least small slam...

and good ♥ suit, at the first bid I didn't had any doubt that I would overcall the 1♠ of the opponent to show a color change to force partner to rebid...

When I saw the 3♦ I tought we would have a strenght in ♦ more than the 4 needed to open... 6 no doubt due to my KQ, if 5card suit it would be somehow weak for a 3♦...

but I wanted to show him that I also had strenght in ♥ and a possible slam, maybe I should have accepted ♦ has trump and beging blackwood, also the ops overcall didn't help the flow of the biding.

ty
Pedro Gil

[PedroG]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 14 2007, 12:16 PM, said:

West can make a forcing passs, North will double.
If West removes this to 4H, than West shows add.
strength and interest in more, East can than bid 4NT
followed by 6H.
Forcing pass is an important weapon, but needs
discussion, even real World Class players, not playing
in regular partnerships, will have misunderstanings.

Hi Marlowe,

This is a very interresting option, not one that has come to my mind at the moment, but a very interresting option Thank you for you answer...

Pedro Gil

[cherdano]

Pass over 4♣ would be clearly non-forcing for me.

Over 4♣, you can't do everything. You want to show your diamond support, slam interest, your good heart suit, your club control, your lack of a spade control. You can't do all of that. Since 4♥ is non-forcing, you just can't bid that, you are too strong and it would deny slam interest. If you bid 5♣, you can at least show your slam interest and diamond support. In case partner bids 5♦ you still have a guess but with this actual hand he should (I think) cue 5♠.

[PedroG]

cherdano, on Jun 14 2007, 02:23 PM, said:

Pass over 4♣ would be clearly non-forcing for me.

Over 4♣, you can't do everything. You want to show your diamond support, slam interest, your good heart suit, your club control, your lack of a spade control. You can't do all of that. Since 4♥ is non-forcing, you just can't bid that, you are too strong and it would deny slam interest. If you bid 5♣, you can at least show your slam interest and diamond support. In case partner bids 5♦ you still have a guess but with this actual hand he should (I think) cue 5♠.

Hi,

ty all for the kind answers

well I didn't think about 5♣, did tought about 4NT to ask for aces, but then wasn't sure if we had trump fit in ♥ or ♦...

and learned the tough way that biding game is a sigoff

ty
Pedro Gil

[mike777]

Very tough hand, great question.

If nothing else I hope you see that with a tough hand and no clear direction, you can double or cuebid very often to help yourself out.

The great thing about these two option bids is you can always tell your partner later how your double or cuebid showed your hand perfectly.


Just keep in mind, with a tough hand think double or cuebid.

[P_Marlowe]

cherdano, on Jun 14 2007, 02:23 PM, said:

Pass over 4♣ would be clearly non-forcing for me.

Over 4♣, you can't do everything. You want to show your diamond support, slam interest, your good heart suit, your club control, your lack of a spade control. You can't do all of that. Since 4♥ is non-forcing, you just can't bid that, you are too strong and it would deny slam interest. If you bid 5♣, you can at least show your slam interest and diamond support. In case partner bids 5♦ you still have a guess but with this actual hand he should (I think) cue 5♠.

Cherdano, I know, I am in a minority, if it comes to FP
agreements, but as always, it depends on partnership
agreements.
Which was also stated in my original reply, it is something
the partnership has to discuss.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gerben42]

East South West North
1♦ - 1♠ - 2♥ - P
3♦ - 4♣ - ?

I can understand you were reluctant to bid 4NT here - it would agree DIAMONDS! So how do you make a slam try? As you are too strong to bid FOUR ♥, have you thought of simply bidding FIVE ♥? This is a rarely used bid and partner should happily raise to 6.

As for reaching 7, I doubt anyone will, besides you need very good odds to make grand slams, better only bid them if you have 13 tricks. Odds worsen because sometimes at other tables they are in game only!

[kenrexford]

My suggestion may be the most practical I have ever made, but it seems to scream out.

Partner's bid of 3♦ must be based upon a six-card suit, because he did not bid 2NT, 3♣, or 2♠. So, we definitely have a diamond fit, and I, as West, am very strong.

At IMP's, the practical difference between 6♥ and 6♦ is much less significant than the difference between 6♥ and 4♥. So, as I suspect but cannot know whether hearts provides an alternative strain to diamonds, I don't care. The heart suit is a mirage - ignore it -- go with diamonds.

This leads to the practical solution of a simple 4NT call. Partner, on this hand, bid 5♥, providing a spade control (Ace), and 6♦ is easily bid. If he were to bid 5♦, you could be conservative (pass), but I'd bet on 6♦ anyway. If he bids 5♣, this is really bad news, but 5♦ hopefully makes anyway.

The other benefitr, by the way, to viewing the heart suit as a mirage is that you really do not want to play 6♥ when partner has Kx or AQ in spades -- 6♦ protects his probable spade control much better. For that matter, partner might also have Qx in clubs. Again, diamonds are better.

[kenrexford]

BTW -- it just occurred to me that the heart suit is more of a mirage than I initially thought.

If we make a slam move (duh!), 5♥ may go down rapidly (spade through Kx(x), spade, ruff a spade). Then, a club back through Qx(x) might leave us in serious trouble at even reaching ten tricks.

Give partner the death hand of ♠KJx ♥J ♦Axxxxx ♣Qxx, and 4♥ has no play. 5♦, in contrast, makes even opposite the death hand.

Give partner a very strong ♠Kxx ♥J ♦AJxxxx ♣KQx, and the defense could go spade 10 lead, tultimately spade-spade-spade-spade, and we now need hearts 3-3. So, even 4♥ may be quite easily set despite a combined 32 HCP's.

In contrast, 5♦ seems rather unassailable.

[skjaeran]

Agree with Cherdano. I'll cue 5♣, agreeing ♦'s vs partner's 6-bagger and invite slam.

I don't understand Ken's 4NT without a ♠ control. And certainly not the case for raising 5♦ to 6 after this, still missing said control.

[kenrexford]

skaeran, on Jun 15 2007, 04:03 PM, said:

Agree with Cherdano. I'll cue 5♣, agreeing ♦'s vs partner's 6-bagger and invite slam.

I don't understand Ken's 4NT without a ♠ control. And certainly not the case for raising 5♦ to 6 after this, still missing said control.

I'll agree 100% that 5♣ as a club cue, agreeing diamonds and isolating a spade problem, is the best way to bid this hand, in theory.

The problem is that this question is posted in the "Beginner and Intermediate" section. Many of the responses are leaning toward how many hearts to bid, which is way off. Many B&I players would not get implied 5-level cues, nor would many B&I Openers realize that a holding like ♠Kxx ♥x ♦AJxxxx ♣Qxx is right for accepting the slam try.

Consider this problem from most people's perspective. They have shown six diamonds, and their six-card suit is only AJ-high. Their spade control is second-round, a king in the wrong spot. They have wasted values, in the form of the Qxx of clubs. They have only a stiff in partner's suit. Their total count in HCP is a mere 10, half of which is in the wrong place. They have a full seven losers, if you only count two losers for Qxx in the wrong spot and only two for Kxx in the wrong spot. In fact, even for an advanced or expert player, this hand sucks bad.

Contrast that with a simpler issue for Responder. What hand must Opener have for slam to fail? Missing two aces is easy to spot. If Opener has only one Ace, he must have, at most, AJxxxx in diamonds (at most as to HCP). At most, one more from hearts (that's 6). If slam fails, Opener must not have the spade Ace or King. So, he could have an additional QJ in spades (9) and KQJ in clubs (15). However, Responder's RHO did bid both suits, and at a high level. I would expect that RHO does not have complete crud in clubs.

The point is that it seems highly unlikely that 6♦ will fail on this hand, whether you ask for Aces or not, from Responder's perspective. Sure, asking Opener to trust a 5♣ call may be technically correct (maybe), but the practical solution seems to be simple ace-asking rather than tossing Opener a zinger 5♣ call and expecting partner to move with the trash that would make slam but respond "one ace."