[navit]

What, If any, is the upper point limit for an overcall?

2 examples


1. opp partner
1C 1S



2. 1S 2H

[mikeh]

I haven't yet overcalled with 21... but 19 is no problem at all... especially in a minor with no tolerance for the other major.


There is no magical dividing line (between double and overcall): the decision is based on several factors, including:

1) the suit they opened
2) the suit I hold
3) my degree or lack of fit for the unbid major(s)
4) the length and strength of my suit: I will rarely double and bid a suit of less than 6 cards....altho rarely is not never
5) the level at which I am overcalling: this impacts the minimum I need, as well as affecting the ease with which partner can bid
6) the methods I am playing: I like transfer advances which allow partner to show a 'weak' single raise.. this allows me to overcall stronger than perhaps is wise without this method, since partner can show me a fit without encouraging me to bid game with 16-17 hcp.

[foo]

As Marty Bergen says "points shmoints"
Even more than Opening Bids, Overcalls are about =tricks=.

They have Opened. Therefore a bid by Us is more risky than it would be if We were the Opening Side. Therefore Our hands have to be hands that are
a= more offensively rather than defensively oriented.

b= hands that are more self sufficient than an Opening hand needs to be since pd is more likely to be unable to help us.

c= Hands with either so much playing strength (eg Overcalled suits are GOOD SUITS!) or so much in HCP that We are unlikely to be X'd for Penalty.


So the "classic" requirements for an Overcall are
1= 7-5 losers. A single suited hand with 4 or less losers X's then bids its suit.
(if you don't know what a Loser is, search on "The Modern Losing Trick Count")

2= Either
a= enough HCP that pd's expected number of HCP for that auction makes them Invitational opposite us, or
b= a suit whose length plus number of Honors adds up to the number of tricks your Overcall says you want to take (so a 1 level Overcall is a promise to take 7 tricks, a 2level one 8 tricks, etc) or
c= both

3= That no other bid better describes your hand. Don't make Overcalls on hands that are better described by T/O X's or a NT bid or Unusual NT or Micheal's or ...


Some Examples of the "classic" style. They Open (1♣).

♠KQxxx♥x♦Axx♣xxxx is a reasonable min 1♠ Overcall.
The fact that you are light on HCP is made up by the fact that you want to play in ♠'s rather than anywhere else and you really want pd to lead a ♠ rather than anything else if We are defending.
Note the 7 losers.
Note that 5 spades + 2 ♠ honors adds up to a Suit Quality of 7 = the number of tricks a 1 level overcall promises to take.

♠KQxxx♥x♦Axx♣AKxx is a reasonable MAX 1♠ Overcall of the same shape for this auction. Note that it has 5 losers.

♠Kxxxx♥x♦AQx♣AKxx
♠Kxxxx♥x♦Axx♣AKQx
So are these. The lack of quality in the ♠ suit is made up for by how many HCP's you have. Again, note 5 losers in each.

♠KQxxx♥x♦Axx♣AKQx
♠KQxxx♥x♦AQx♣AKxx
♠AKQxx♥x♦Axx♣AKxx
Are examples of the kinds of hands of the same shape that in this auction X then bid their suit. These are =minimums= for X'ing then bidding your suit in this auction. Note that all have 4 losers.

[skjaeran]

foo, on Jun 14 2007, 07:02 PM, said:

[snip]
♠KQxxx♥x♦Axx♣AKQx
♠KQxxx♥x♦AQx♣AKxx
♠AKQxx♥x♦Axx♣AKxx
Are examples of the kinds of hands of the same shape that in this auction X then bid their suit.  These are =minimums= for X'ing then bidding your suit in this auction.  Note that all have 4 losers.

Basically I agree with what Foo said, and Mike's post before that.

But I put the limit between an overcall and double+overcall a little higher than Foo.

On the three example hands quoted, I'd overcall 1♠ with the first two and double first only with the last hand.

[mikeh]

skaeran, on Jun 14 2007, 03:30 PM, said:

foo, on Jun 14 2007, 07:02 PM, said:

[snip]
♠KQxxx♥x♦Axx♣AKQx
♠KQxxx♥x♦AQx♣AKxx
♠AKQxx♥x♦Axx♣AKxx
Are examples of the kinds of hands of the same shape that in this auction X then bid their suit.  These are =minimums= for X'ing then bidding your suit in this auction.  Note that all have 4 losers.

Basically I agree with what Foo said, and Mike's post before that.

But I put the limit between an overcall and double+overcall a little higher than Foo.

On the three example hands quoted, I'd overcall 1♠ with the first two and double first only with the last hand.

moi aussi (just to prove(?) that I can be bilingual)

[jdonn]

I would double all 3 of those examples, but switch the majors and I would overcall the first two. It doesn't seem like a big deal to bid spades over heart responses, but hearts over spade responses would be a lot harder.

Pardon I thought they opened 1♦. Now it's a lot less clear, I might overcall all of them. But I really don't think doubling is so bad on hands that good even with the stiff heart, though I know some people hate it.

[foo]

mikeh, on Jun 14 2007, 03:57 PM, said:

skaeran, on Jun 14 2007, 03:30 PM, said:

foo, on Jun 14 2007, 07:02 PM, said:

[snip]
♠KQxxx♥x♦Axx♣AKQx
♠KQxxx♥x♦AQx♣AKxx
♠AKQxx♥x♦Axx♣AKxx
Are examples of the kinds of hands of the same shape that in this auction X then bid their suit.  These are =minimums= for X'ing then bidding your suit in this auction.  Note that all have 4 losers.

...I put the limit between an overcall and double+overcall a little higher than Foo.

On the three example hands quoted, I'd overcall 1♠ with the first two and double first only with the last hand.

moi aussi (just to prove(?) that I can be bilingual)

I created those last 3 examples the way I did on purpose. I wanted to see if I'd get comments like these about them, and as I expected I did.

All 3 hands need nothing more than a fit and 1 working card from pd to make 4♠.
That makes them strong enough that
*when we are this strong, pd may very well pass a simple overcall w/ hands that we should be in game on.*
...and =that= should be the biggest differentiator between a hand you overcall with and a hand you X then bid your suit with.

In fact, =if the Opening bid is RHO=, then even
♠AKQxx♥x♦Axx♣AQxx
is good enough to X then bid your suit with.
(Because the ♣K is ~9/10 going to be on side)

Put that same 19 count so that the opening bid is from LHO, and you have to downgrade the hand to a simple Overcall because the ♣Q is far less likely to take a trick.

Which brings us to the next point about Overcalls.
*Where the values are around you ATT relative to your hand can change the playing strength of your hand considerably compared to what their HCP might suggest.*

I won't go into this in detail because the discussion rapidly gets very advanced, but the basic premise is that
a= if they are bidding on the RHS, it tends to make your hand better.
b= if you have values and/or length in suits They have not bid, it tends to make your hand better.
c= and the opposites are also true. If they are bidding your suits or the suits where you have values on your LHS, be _much_ more cautious about competitive bidding.

[helene_t]

With 17+ points I'd think about an alternative to a simple overcall. With a singleton in an unbid major, though, there's hardly any upper limit.

[Fluffy]

The upper limit with a void, if there is one, is higher because it will very hardly get passed out.