[neilkaz]

vuroth, on Jun 14 2007, 10:25 AM, said:

Apollo81, on Jun 14 2007, 10:45 AM, said:

Whether you pick 3♠ (limit raise) or 2NT (GF raise) is up to you, but those should be the only choices up for consideration.

Is Delayed Game Raise obsolete then, or does it just apply to a specific sort of hand?

V

I use the dellayed game raise only rarely. I use it when I have the top of my 3 card limit raise and PD's rebid after my 1NTF (and/or once in a while opp intervention) has enhanced my hand somewhat, so I now I think game is a good shot.

I'll admit that there may be better or added uses for this .. neilkaz ..

[Echognome]

I agree with the others that the only two choices to consider are limit raise and GF raise. Which of those I choose depends on how sound my partners tend to open.

To clarify, a delayed game raise is used when you do not have an artificial way to show a game forcing hand with support. Then you make a forcing bid and jump to game afterwards to show your hand type. This was much more common before the Jacoby 2NT convention was invented.

There are other uses now for a 2/1 and a jump to game. Some use it as a picture bid and others use it as showing a very minimum 2/1 (namely I wanted to show you my secondary suit, but I do not have any extras besides that 5 card suit and some support for your major).

I think it's fine to play limit raises as 3+ in order to keep your agreements to a minimum. Yes, there are ways to distinguish between 3 and 4 card limit raises, but there are also ways to distinguish between mixed raises and preemptive raises and also between good preempts to game and bad preempts to game. There are many, many conventions and gadgets one could play, but why? I say that you should only worry about them once you feel comfortable in your play and defense and have a serious partner you want to work with on it.

[foo]

jillybean2, on Jun 14 2007, 12:36 AM, said:

My 11 point limit raises often have just 3 card support and this hand is stronger than that, 4♠'s, 2Aces, AJ7 could be useful.

Its not worth a GF so I agree I should have down graded and made a limit raise, or are you suggesting I downgrade my limit raise in general?

The 1st problem that needs to be addressed here is defining an Invitational hand in SA, SAYC, or 2/1 GF.
There are good 9's, and bad 12's, but usually the HCP range is 10-11.
But don't forget to count your Dummy points! +1 for a doubleton, +3 for a stiff, +5 for a void in any side suit.
HCP + Shortness Points= Dummy Points.
10-11 DP => Invitational hand. 12+ DP => GF hand.


A Limit Raise, 1M-3M, is supposed to show 4 card support. If someone told you to casually make LR's with only 3 card support, they misled you. You sometimes may have no choice, but 3 card LR's should be a last resort to describe your hand.

Just about every Invitational hand with only 3 card support can be bid in a different way within a SA context:
a= any hand with a side 5+ card suit.
Makes a 2/1 and then raises.

b= flat hands with 3 card support but no side 5+ card suit have to be evaluated very carefully as to their true trick taking potential. Some will be downgraded to 1N or a simple raise. Some will require you to 2/1 in a 4 card suit that rates to be source of tricks.
Some problem hands playing SA: 1S-??

1= K9x.KJ9x.J9x.ATx
Grit your teeth and bid 1N or 3S.
My preference would be 1N w/ most 10 HCP and 3S with most 11 HCP, but there are exceptions to even that.
Invitational 4333's are a problem for SA and are an advertisement for the 1N forcing or semi-forcing response to 1M.

2= KT9.T8xx.Kx.A9xx
I'd bid 1N with this one, but change the ♦K into the ♥K here and I'd bid 3S.

3= KQ9.QT.JT9x.QJT9
An easy 1N with all these soft values.

4= 8xx.J9xx.KT.AQJ8
Bid 2C and then raise ♠'s.

Side note: Playing absolutely vanilla SAYC, flat Invitational hands are easier to handle because 1M-2N is natural! Having 2N available to show flat Invitational hands simplifies these situations enormously. OTOH J2N is handy when deciding between game or slam

[jillybean]

foo, on Jun 14 2007, 09:06 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Jun 14 2007, 12:36 AM, said:

My 11 point limit raises often have just 3 card support and this hand is stronger than that, 4♠'s, 2Aces, AJ7 could be useful.

Its not worth a GF so I agree I should have down graded and made a limit raise, or are you suggesting I downgrade my limit raise in general?

The 1st problem that needs to be addressed here is defining an Invitational hand in SA, SAYC, or 2/1 GF.
There are good 9's, and bad 12's, but usually the HCP range is 10-11.
But don't forget to count your Dummy points! +1 for a doubleton, +3 for a stiff, +5 for a void in any side suit.
HCP + Shortness Points= Playing Points.
10-11 PP => Invitational hand. 12+ PP => GF hand.


A Limit Raise, 1M-3M, is supposed to show 4 card support. If someone told you to casually make LR's with only 3 card support, they misled you. You sometimes may have no choice, but 3 card LR's should be a last resort to describe your hand.

I am surprised to see it suggested that we count “dummy points’ and reminds me of being told I cannot open on less than 13 points. Likewise, only 4 card limit raises? Unless I am mistaken, this is not the modern method of hand evaluation.

PS I have never heard of 1M:2N natural!

[foo]

Jilly, if it works don't knock it unless or until you find something that works better.

SA where
1= Opener counts HCP + length points= Opening Points and Opens whenever having >= 13 Points, and
2= Dummy adds HCP + shortness= Dummy points in the presence of a fit to decide how good their hand is
...works a lot better than some of the poster's around here might want to admit.

Add to that the heuristic that you want to be in
3N w/ 26 Playing Points w/o a fit
3N or 4M w/ 25 PP and a fit
3N or 4M w/ 24 PP and a fit split exactly 12 + 12
5m if you can't play any other game and have 27 PP and a fit.
(Opening Points + Dummy Points = Playing Points)
...and you will be bidding plenty aggressively, I assure you.

More importantly, you will tend to =make= what you bid.

As for why a Limit Raise should promise 4+ trumps.
"The 9th trump is the most important card in Bridge."

A Limit Raise removes =all= the room for exploration. Opener has to make an important decision based 100% on that one bid. The knowledge that there is usually a 9+ card fit present helps Opener enormously.

PS. Most people add J2N to Their SA card way too soon!

[cherdano]

In SAYC, 1M-3M shows a 3 or 4-card limit raise. Not ideal, but solves other problems of SA.

[foo]

cherdano, on Jun 15 2007, 12:59 AM, said:

In SAYC, 1M-3M shows a 3 or 4-card limit raise. Not ideal, but solves other problems of SA.

Yes, but 1M-3M w/ only 3 trumps really should be avoided as much as possible.

If you have a side 5+ card suit (eg a side source of potential tricks), that is important information for Opener to know.

If your hand doesn't have a side 5+ card suit, its playing strength has to be very carefully evaluated since 4333's and 4432's really do play much worse than more shapely hands do. (Also; with these shapes opposite Opener often NT will play better than a suit contract.)