[jdonn]

foo, on Jun 18 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

If you don't open this 8 - 8 1/2 trick 19 count 2C, then the SA rebid after
1H-1S;?? is 4H

I actually agree with this statement that technically 4♥ is the systematic rebid, but 4♥ is such a bad bid anyway that I would never make it. I think (short of an artificial 2NT rebid or something) that faking 3♣ is obvious. I have made bids like that many times and have not had one single disaster. I feel people who say they hate bids like that are just fearful of what looks unfamiliar to them, when in actuality there is little danger and great upside. There are numerous hands that make slam where partner will pass a 4♥ or 4♠ rebid.

[gwnn]

3 losers is a little optimistic.

[firmit]

Wasn't there a thread discussing the rebid of 2NT after this sequence - showing 3 card support and solid 6 card prime suit? I can't find it... but it was not that long ago...

[Codo]

jdonn, on Jun 19 2007, 04:07 PM, said:

foo, on Jun 18 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

If you don't open this 8 - 8 1/2 trick 19 count 2C, then the SA rebid after
1H-1S;?? is 4H

I actually agree with this statement that technically 4♥ is the systematic rebid, but 4♥ is such a bad bid anyway that I would never make it. I think (short of an artificial 2NT rebid or something) that faking 3♣ is obvious. I have made bids like that many times and have not had one single disaster. I feel people who say they hate bids like that are just fearful of what looks unfamiliar to them, when in actuality there is little danger and great upside. There are numerous hands that make slam where partner will pass a 4♥ or 4♠ rebid.

How do you solve the next rebid problems after:
1 ♥ 1 ♠ 3 ♣

-3 NT pass and miss the 5-3 spade fit taking 6 Heart and pds diamond stop for 3 down? Or pull to 4 Heart and hope pd will understand and not correct to 5 club with 5044?
4 ♣? you proceed with?
5 ♣? you bid of xyz shows what?

Don´t get me wrong, there are for sure good definitions possible- put the problem was given opposite a pick up pd. And I doubt that there is a great consensus, about how to bid on after each of this bids.

And I doubt too that 4 Heart is the systemic bid. This bid shows in no way at all the structure and strength of the hand. It shows a one suiter which does not care about pds spades. No good describtion of the hand at all. Do you think, that pd with Axxxxx,-,Axx,xxx will take you to the grand? But he may will after your 4 Spade bid.
I think there simply is no "systemic" call to show these hands. That is why 2 NT to show 35xy was discussed here before...

[foo]

gwnn, on Jun 19 2007, 04:56 AM, said:

3 losers is a little optimistic.

♠ KQx ♥ AKQJxx ♦ 8x ♣ Ax

Excuse me, stupid counting (or typing, I'm not sure which this many hours from the mistake) error on my part.

Apriori, it's 4 losers (1 ♠ + 2 ♦'s + 1 ♣).

sorry.

Given the difficulties the auction is having after a 1♥ opening, I still think the best solution with this hand is to open 2C. Give pd 1 good card and they might pass a 1♥ opening while We are cold for game.

[jdonn]

Codo, on Jun 19 2007, 07:06 AM, said:

And I doubt too that 4 Heart is the systemic bid.

You are wrong. It's just a bad system. 4♥ is technically the system bid with AKQ 765432 AK Ax, even though no one in their right mind would bid it.

[cherdano]

I have been opening this hand type with 2♣ for a while, and I still like it.

[foo]

jdonn, on Jun 19 2007, 10:59 AM, said:

Codo, on Jun 19 2007, 07:06 AM, said:

And I doubt too that 4 Heart is the systemic bid.

You are wrong. It's just a bad system. 4♥ is technically the system bid with AKQ 765432 AK Ax, even though no one in their right mind would bid it.

Actually, there =is= an explicit clause in SA about having a good suit for any jump rebid of that suit.
765432 isn't it.

With AKQ.765432.AK.Ax, I'd have a problem.
My Logical Alternatives would be to
a= Open 1H and rebid 2N if H's are not supported
b= Open 2N and more or less pretend I have =3532

ATT, I'd probably judge that it's closer to a flat 20 count than a flat 19 count and Open it 2N.

"If you must Lie, tell the least lie."

[catatonic]

surely 4♥ is the correct bid ; not enough tricks to open 2♣ , but once you have bid 1♠ I have a game going hand due to my 3 card ♠ fit and a strong ♥ suit

with a hand only strong enough to open 1♥ , what else would justify a jump to game ?

[foo]

catatonic, on Jun 19 2007, 02:03 PM, said:

surely 4♥ is the correct bid ; not enough tricks to open 2♣ , but once you have bid 1♠ I have a game going hand due to my 3 card ♠ fit and a strong ♥ suit

with a hand only strong enough to open 1♥ , what else would justify a jump to game ?

The hand in question: ♠ KQx ♥ AKQJxx ♦ 8x ♣ Ax

Let's examine the idea that this hand is not good enough to Open 2♣ more closely.

1= Let's give pd the worst shape they can reasonably have.
Say something like 31(54) or =4144.

No fit anywhere and 2 of those have mirror distribution in ♠'s to make things worse.

In any of those shapes, give Responder any =one= of (♠A, ♦A, ♣K) and not a single additional value and 4♥'s rates to make but Responder should pass a 1♥ opening.
...and that's in a total misfit with a sub-minimum. Responder does not have to be anywhere as bad as this.


2= Another tack. Which saves more space,
a= Opening 2♣ or
b= Opening 1♥ and rebidding 4♥

The folks advocating a 1♥ opening are having a very hard time with the subsequent auction. Open 2♣ and these problems do not exist.

[asegob]

Add me to the 4H boat

[Codo]

foo, on Jun 20 2007, 06:18 AM, said:

The hand in question: ♠ KQx ♥ AKQJxx ♦ 8x ♣ Ax

Let's examine the idea that this hand is not good enough to Open 2♣ more closely.

1= Let's give pd the worst shape they can reasonably have.
Say something like 31(54) or =4144.

No fit anywhere and 2 of those have mirror distribution in ♠'s to make things worse.

In any of those shapes, give Responder any =one= of (♠A, ♦A, ♣K) and not a single additional value and 4♥'s rates to make but Responder should pass a 1♥ opening.
...and that's in a total misfit with a sub-minimum. Responder does not have to be anywhere as bad as this.

If pd has the ace of spades you have 10 tricks
If pd has the A of D you have nine tricks.
With the K of Clubs you have nine tricks.

Okay there are opponents who slip in defence and take the ace of spade in front of KQx but they are getting rare. And of course you have some chances that opps may well misdefend in another way and hold onto the wrong length, but still....

[foo]

Codo, on Jun 20 2007, 03:02 AM, said:

If pd has the ace of spades you have 10 tricks
If pd has the A of D you have nine tricks.
With the K of Clubs you have nine tricks.

Point. I should have said 4H or 3N will be on.

Bottom line is still that We still have a game opposite a subminimum Responder who is as stinky as I could make them and who rates to pass a 1H opening.

As the actual board attests, Responder does not have to be anywhere near as pessimistically bad as I envisioned here.

[Fluffy]

foo, on Jun 19 2007, 09:18 PM, said:

The folks advocating a 1♥ opening are having a very hard time with the subsequent auction. Open 2♣ and these problems do not exist.

2♣-2♠-ps-4♠
??

Who's got the problem now?

[Codo]

foo, on Jun 20 2007, 09:10 PM, said:

Codo, on Jun 20 2007, 03:02 AM, said:

If pd has the ace of spades you have 10 tricks
If pd has the A of D you have nine tricks.
With the K of Clubs you have nine tricks.

Point. I should have said 4H or 3N will be on.

As the actual board attests, Responder does not have to be anywhere near as pessimistically bad as I envisioned here.

And you need a pd who can envison, that xxxx,x,Axxx,xxxx makes 3 NT, but Axxx,x,xxxx,xxxx makes 4 Heart. Good luck.

No you must not be too pesimistical, but more often then not, with this hand you need two cover cards from pd to make game.
If you play benjamin, this is a goodl 2 Club opening. If you play Acol twos, this is an upper end 2 Heart opening. But most people don´t see it as a gf.

[foo]

Codo, on Jun 20 2007, 09:07 AM, said:

foo, on Jun 20 2007, 09:10 PM, said:

Codo, on Jun 20 2007, 03:02 AM, said:

If pd has the ace of spades you have 10 tricks
If pd has the A of D you have nine tricks.
With the K of Clubs you have nine tricks.

Point. I should have said 4H or 3N will be on.

As the actual board attests, Responder does not have to be anywhere near as pessimistically bad as I envisioned here.

And you need a pd who can envison, that xxxx,x,Axxx,xxxx makes 3 NT, but Axxx,x,xxxx,xxxx makes 4 Heart. Good luck.

No, you just use the rule that GF misfits play 3N and be done with it.

[foo]

Fluffy, on Jun 20 2007, 07:52 AM, said:

foo, on Jun 19 2007, 09:18 PM, said:

The folks advocating a 1♥ opening are having a very hard time with the subsequent auction.  Open 2♣ and these problems do not exist.

2♣-2♠-ps-4♠;??

Who's got the problem now?

In the auction you gave, if that's the =opponents= bidding 4♠, it's Them who has the problem given that in the OP We have 8 ♠'s and in my weak misfit examples We have 6-7 ♠'s... ...and GF HCP.

Preempts of the kind you are describing are relatively rare over 2♣ because the downside is very large and very likely.


Where in the World did you get that auction?
OP Hands:
♠ AJ962 ♥ 8 ♦ A62 ♣ KQT5

♠ KQ7 ♥ AKQJ72 ♦ 85 ♣ A7

2♣-2♦ Waiting; 3♥-3♠; 4♠-4N; [3 KC's]-[♠Q Ask?]; [yep]-7N;


Or are you claiming that They are going to Preempt in ♦'s when We open 2♣?
2♣-(2♦)-?? or 2♣-(3♦)-??
With the OP hands, Responder is not passing.
With my weak misfit examples, They do not have any suit to preempt in.

[BebopKid]

I may be confused, but I can't make any sense of the bidding here.

I think the bidding should have been

1♥ 1♠
4♥* 4NT
5♣** 5NT
6♦*** 6NT****
7NT*****

*Maximum hand and 6+ hearts
**3 Key cards (all accounted for)
***1 King (1 king missing)
****We're missing a king.
*****That's okay, I have KQ in your suit, you can throw off the losers on my hearts.

Is there anything wrong with this thinking? I'm I completely off my rocker?

I count 15 winners, btw: 5♠s 6♥s 1♦ 3♣s
Tough opener can't know that since he has no way to know responder has 5 spades instead of four. But he should be able to assertain 13 tricks from the bidding.

[hrothgar]

Late arrival to this thread:

Comment 1: This hand type is a well know problem for most simple bidding systems. There is a reason that this gets referred to as the Bridge World Death hand.

Comment 2: There are a number of well known "fixes" for this hand type. Some people have an artifical 2NT rebid available. Others play a 2♣ rebid as artificial and forcing. None of these fixes are free (typically, you are increasing the complexity of the system)

Comment 3: Personally, if I were playing in a pickup partnership, I would open 1♥ and rebid 3♣. For example, a few months ago I was playing with Justin and picked up

♠ A72
♥ AK9763
♦ A7
♣ KQ

I opened 1♥, Justin responded 1♠. I decided that a 3♣ rebid was the best course of action.

[catatonic]

exactly so , a jump to 3 minor will the hands where you don't have 3 card ♠ support ; ok , may be a 3 card suit but so what ?