[cherdano]

Why not ask? Because 3D doesn't ask the question you are thinking it asks.

If partner bids 3S over 3D, that shows a spade fragment, says nothing about a diamond stopper. If he bids 3N over 3D, this shows a diamond stopper, says nothing about a major suit stopper. Whatever you do, you will never know that playing 3N is right. Meanwhile, opponents can double your 3-level bids for the lead (or to compete), or draw the right inferences for the lead against 5C, whereas the rest of the world bids 5C and has a better chance that the opponents make a mistake either in the lead or in the bidding.

The side ace has nothing to do with the core of the debate.

[mike777]

kenrexford, on Jun 12 2007, 07:54 PM, said:

mike777, on Jun 12 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

IF you guys are going to make a 3 level preempt in front of an unpassed hand with an outside Ace, that seems a bit tough. All of those examples look like an everyday 2club vul overcall to me.

Well, see, now that's the core of the debate. IMO, red-on-white 3♣ calls do not bring home the cash as simply "I have garbage" bids. It looks, to me, more like a small defense player potential.

When has a single side Ace and KQJxxxx in clubs ever been deemed a great defensive hand?

However, one side Ace, a bolster, and a semi-solid suit has both 3NT potential and little defense.

AND WHY NOT ASK?

These examples are clear opening hands for me. Why confuse the heck out of partner by making a preemptive bid with an opening hand in front of an unpassed partner.

If partner expects much more than that for an opening bid, ok. If partner expects that you may often have an outside ace for your bid, fine. Otherwise you are confusing the heck out of your partner.

[pclayton]

Hard to construct a hand where 5♣ is good, even at these colors.

I suspect LHO has a lot more to say. I'll try a gentle 4♣. Strangely enough, pard sometimes takes the push when its right at this vulnerability.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Pass.

Depends on your agreements, if 3C promises at most -2,
than I dont see how this hand can produce 4 tricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 13 2007, 02:19 AM, said:

Hi,

Pass.

Depends on your agreements, if 3C promises at most -2,
than I dont see how this hand can produce 4 tricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Marlowe:

Upon reflection, long reflection I agree 5c making is unlikely.
But....5C may still be winning the board bid, yes?
I bid 5c.
1) Assume partner does not have 11 hcp
2) assume partner does not have an ace.
3) assume partner does not have many super 10 hcp hands with long clubs.
4) ?

[jtfanclub]

mike777, on Jun 13 2007, 02:45 AM, said:

Upon reflection, long reflection I agree 5c making is unlikely.
But....5C may still be winning the board bid, yes?

It may be the winning final bid, but why be in such a hurry to get there?

There's so many better places than 5CX. Like 4C, 4CX, and them 'walking the dog' to the 5 level. They may not have game, and they may have game and not bid it. If they do bid game, I feel that 4C describes my hand well enough that partner can make the correct call.

5C to me at this vulnerability should be used to keep them out of slam. That's not something I'm worried about.