[mikeh]

jtfanclub, on Jun 11 2007, 07:49 PM, said:

mikeh, on Jun 11 2007, 07:23 PM, said:

(I don't really mean it.. please don't post weird hands that play well.... we'd just get into arguments about how realistic the various auctions are).

Aw...c'mon. Take Axxx xxxx x ATxx. That's not weird, that's expected shape, it's 8 hcp, and it's still odds on for game. Throw in a half dozen random points, and it's still not good enough to raise.


I'm not defending 4♠ any more. I was so intruiged about what else besides 1♠ could possibly be the right answer, that I probably overthought the hand. I put it out there, it got shot down, that's good enough for me.

well, if you really think that the auction will go 1♠ p p p... then you are entirely correct... although you play in a different universe than I do However, by responding, I am rising to a bait I cast myself and I said I wouldn't do that

[inquiry]

I voted for 1♠, and that is what I would bid. But let me step in here with a treatment I took from Glen's excellent "bridgematters" webpage. He had a page that suggested simple responses to 1z-X-P-? on up to 0-10 (or bad 11) HCP and a four card suit or 0-5 and 5+ card suit. This requires a curtesy raise by doubler with four card support and not too much more than a minimum. The jump to 2 of a suit (1d-x-P-2S, for instance) required five card suit and 6-10 points. His article suggest jump to two with five hcp and five card suit if headed by AJ or KQ. I need AJ9xx or KQxxx.

I was skeptical of responding at the one level with 10 hcp and jumping to the two level with five/six hcp, but it seems to be working fine. This hand is just below the requirement for the jump to 2♠ -- even by these liberal standards.

[kenrexford]

inquiry, on Jun 11 2007, 09:14 PM, said:

I voted for 1♠, and that is what I would bid. But let me step in here with a treatment I took from Glen's excellent "bridgematters" webpage. He had a page that suggested simple responses to 1z-X-P-? on up to 0-10 (or bad 11) HCP and a four card suit or 0-5 and 5+ card suit. This requires a curtesy raise by doubler with four card support and not too much more than a minimum. The jump to 2 of a suit (1d-x-P-2S, for instance) required five card suit and 6-10 points. His article suggest jump to two with five hcp and five card suit if headed by AJ or KQ. I need AJ9xx or KQxxx.

I was skeptical of responding at the one level with 10 hcp and jumping to the two level with five/six hcp, but it seems to be working fine. This hand is just below the requirement for the jump to 2♠ -- even by these liberal standards.

I'm glad to see some additional theory arising here.

There is one difference, I'm sure you see, between 1♦-X-P-2♠ and 1♦-X-1♥-2♠, one that I consider major. By inclusion of the 1♥ call, several matters change.

My available HCP count is expected to be somewhat lower. Give a classic 11-14, 11-14, 6-9 layout, and I have an expected range of 3-12. Without the call from Responder, my maximum is higher, and my minimum tends to be higher. So, with a slightly higher count, I might need a slightly higher valuation for the jump. With slightly lesser values, in comp., I probably can relax the HCP contribution.

The 1♥ call also allows me to wriggle off the hook with poor shape or poor strength. This makes 1♠ a different call, and similarly 2♠ can be a different call.

Also, the values promised to Opener by Responder, and the identification of the location thereof, gives Opener heightened ability to himself be tactical and competitive, increasing our risk for inaction or low action.

So, although the uncontested structure seems "workable," the contested auction, both risk carrying and enabling at the same time, is a different auction.

[Fluffy]

Wow 15 options, but just 1 answer


with bad 11 HCP and 4 spades I bid 2♠.

[skjaeran]

2♠.
This position is very different from (1♦) - x - (p).
I'd bid 1♠ with the balanced ratty 11 count with 4♠'s.
2♠ shows a distributional hand with a 5-bagger and 5-8 hcp (or thereabouts). I expect 2♠ to have some play, to preempt opponents bidding and have no game interest, unless partner comes to life.

[gwnn]

I bid 2♠, but I realize it's less than a subminimum. I just feel the double fit floating in the air.

[Gerben42]

1.9♠ (meaning I would bid 2 but can understand 1). I cannot understand not bidding ♠ here.

[P_Marlowe]

2S, wtp?

... I have seen the results.

I dont care if you take the bid
as weak or encouraging, I have it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

I voted 2♠ which is what I prefer to bid, but with an unknwon p probably 1♠ is safer.

With a flat 11-point with four spades I bid 2♦.

X is pointless with a hand with a clear direction. It is also very dangerous since most partners would pass it with an normal t/o double (three-card hearts) and everybody will pass with a 4-card hearts.

[asc]

2♠Too good to say only 1♠. We have 8+ cards in ♠. This can push rhem a little bit more in ♥. Yes the problem is when my partner doubles 3♥-3♠ -I can't stay yet.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jun 11 2007, 09:45 PM, said:

1♠, though I usually hate this answer this seems like a case of 'wtp'.

x2

[bid_em_up]

kenrexford, on Jun 11 2007, 08:02 PM, said:

Had I bid 3♠, as I learned it, this would ask partner to bid 4♠ unless he has a good reason to not bid 4♠, essentially. But, 2♠ is a pure expectancy bid, somewhat "preemptive" in effect but "descriptive" in purpose.

I prefer that these two bids be reversed.

So that 2S shows a good hand inviting 4S, and 3S is purely preemptive.

After all, bidding 1S does nothing to preclude a 2H call (or a support X), and 2S doesn't gain much in that department either.

We are short in hearts, and we do have a presupposed double fit (clubs, spades). I dont expect 3S to be damaged that badly, should the opponents decide to defend (and they are correct).

[jtfanclub]

bid_em_up, on Jun 12 2007, 11:02 AM, said:

We are short in hearts, and we do have a presupposed double fit (clubs, spades).  I dont expect 3S to be damaged that badly, should the opponents decide to defend (and they are correct).

And if you don't expect 3S to be damaged that badly vulnerable...

Come to the Dark side, young Jedi....


P.S. We had a similar auction yesterday, I jumped to game with junk like this, LHO bid 5♥ or whatever the equivalent was, and partner brought down the hammer. +1100. I'd probably be smarter if the opponents would stop rewarding my stupidity.

[Halo]

I'd bid one spade. I'd bid two spades with 8-10. Cue with better than 10.

For me this approach is 'traditional' and may well not be optimal. I can see some attraction in being able to bid two spades as a weak preempt.