[Chamaco]

Hi all, I'd like to know what is the standard approach (if any) to responding to a takeout double when you hold a 4 card major and a longer minor, in the three cases outlined below.
I am aware that any partnership is free to adopt any agreement, but I would like to understand what I am supposed to expect in occasional partnerships which are guided by "standard" approaches.
Thank !

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Responding to pard's t/o dbl with 5m4M and various HCP ranges

1) minimum hand, but not a yarborough (say 5-7 hcp)
1D-Dbl-pass

x-QTxx-xxx- ATxxx

Bid spades or clubs, and why ?
If the answer is spades because we stay at the one leve, would you bid spades anyway (at the 2 level) holding the same hand if the bidding had gone 1S-Dbl-pass ?


2) invitational hand

1D-Dbl-pass
x-AJxx-xxx- KJTxx

"Textbook treatment" would be that a jump bid is invitational.
Jump to 2H or 3C ?
Instict would tell me to sump to 2S because of the lower level and risking the major fit is to big of a risk, yet this distorts the shape.

3) GF hand

1D-Dbl-pass
x-AJxx-Axx- KJTxx

"Textbook treatment" would be that a cuebid is the Game forcing bid.
However it is not clear to me how then the doubler shows which is his major or if he has both OR if he needs a stopper in the opener's suit.
E.g.:
1D-Dbl-pass-2D
pass-3D
Is 3D "pick a major" or "bid 3NT if you've got a diamond stopper"?
Would 4D be the "pick a major" bid while 3D is stopper ask, or is it a splinter ?

[Gerben47]

1) minimum hand, but not a yarborough (say 5-7 hcp)
1D-Dbl-pass

x-QTxx-xxx- ATxxx

Bid the major first because partner tends to have those. 1 heart.

2) invitational hand

1D-Dbl-pass
x-AJxx-xxx- KJTxx

Again bid the major first. 2 hearts.

Note that if you have a 5-card major that this is your fit so you must insist on your major. If you bid clubs afterwards you show this hand not the other way around.

3) GF hand

1D-Dbl-pass
x-AJxx-Axx- KJTxx

"Textbook treatment" would be that a cuebid is the Game forcing bid.
However it is not clear to me how then the doubler shows which is his major or if he has both OR if he needs a stopper in the opener's suit.
E.g.:
1D-Dbl-pass-2D
pass-3D
Is 3D "pick a major" or "bid 3NT if you've got a diamond stopper"?
Would 4D be the "pick a major" bid while 3D is stopper ask, or is it a splinter ?

"Pick a major". If he wants to know about the diamond stopper and has no majors, I guess 2NT is the bid (with stopper 3NT directly).

Gerben

[inquiry]

1♦-DBL-Pass-? For all hands below

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I would bid 1♥. To answer the question more directly, however, I will bid the minor if I have a weaker hand. That is, 1♥ will tend to encourage a partner with a fit more than a 2♣ bid to strive for game. If I am really broke (not a good hand like this for the non-jump), I will tend to bid the minor. Thus give me something like ♠xx-♥Jxxx-♦xx-♣xxxxx I will bid 2♣ instead of 1♥. Experience has shown that when you are this weak, your partner will be strong enough to make a good game try, and will do so if you bid 1♥, so trying to stay low by bidding 1♥ will not work, you will be in 2♥ or 3♥ very quickly. Bidding 2]CL] will elicits less enthusiasm from your partner.

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This time I want to encourage. I will bid 2♥ with most partners.

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I see nothing astetically wrong with 3♦. After 2♦, we were game forced, so if partner then willynilly bids 3♦ instead of 2 of a major, I play that as looking for a ♦ stopper, so with this hand I would bid 3NT. Sure I have 4♥, but partner could have taken a whole heck of a lot of different routes over 2♦.

[Free]

Since partner Dbls with at least 3 cards in any other suit (or a very strong hand), you should always bid your major first. 4-3 fits aren't a big problem, and playing in a minor is silly

[luis]

After 1d-x-pass

With
2,QT32, 432, AT432

I'd bid 2c, when pd has a normal takeout double with 3+ cards in all the suits but diamonds I want to land in a 5-3 or 5-4 club fit and not in a 4-3 heart fit.

With
2, AJ43, 432, KJT42

I'd bid 2h, showing some values.

With
2, AJ43, A32, KJT42

I'd cuebid 2d

[the hog]

2,QT32, 432, AT432

1H - automatic, as partner is likely to have these. a 2C bid denies a 4 card H holding.

2, AJ43, 432, KJT42

2H

2, AJ43, A32, KJT42

Cue of 2D

[mikestar]

The other cases have been covered well, but the cuebid needs more explanation.

(1♦)-X-(P)-2♦

is either any game force that isn't appropriate for a direct jump to game, or a hand with 4-4 in the majors and at least invitational strength. This is needful because doubler may well be 4-3 and we need to find the 4-4 fit. Doubler bids his 4-card major, with both he bids 2♥ to save space in case advancer has a GF with 4 spades and less than 4 hearts.

(1♥)-X-(P)-2♥ is GF as there is no need for pick a major.

This is the classic rule but many players double more freely these days, perhaps doubling a minor with 3-3 majors or doubling a major with only 3 in the other major. A regular partnership may prefer to use the cuebid more freely as a checkback for major suit length and have the jump advance show 5.

[Trpltrbl]

mikestar, on Jan 30 2004, 11:02 AM, said:

The other cases have been covered well, but the cuebid needs more explanation.

(1♦)-X-(P)-2♦

is either any game force that isn't appropriate for a direct jump to game, or a hand with 4-4 in the majors and at least invitational strength. This is needful because doubler may well be 4-3 and we need to find the 4-4 fit. Doubler bids his 4-card major, with both he bids 2♥ to save space in case advancer has a GF with 4 spades and less than 4 hearts.

(1♥)-X-(P)-2♥ is GF as there is no need for pick a major.

This is the classic rule but many players double more freely these days, perhaps doubling a minor with 3-3 majors or doubling a major with only 3 in the other major. A regular partnership may prefer to use the cuebid more freely as a checkback for major suit length and have the jump advance show 5.

After 2 pd will bid his 4 card major if he only has that one, if he has both he will bid 3. And if my pd X without any 4 card major and no stopper I think he should have overcalled 2 or passed.

Mike

[inquiry]

An interesting thread with a variety of bidding theories espoused. What interested me is the question posed by what is "the standard" for responding to a TO double when holding 4 card major and longer minor.

The responses are very interesting.

Luis, always responds in his longer minor with the weak hand, because he wants 5-3 fit.
Ron, always responds in the four card major as "automatic"
Gerben responds in the major becasue "partner tends to have them"
and Free responds in the major EVEN williing to play in 4-3 fit because playing in a minor is "silly"

Then there is me. I guess I am actually very close to Luis's point of view. With weak hands, I respond in the longer minor. The problem is, my definition of weak and his is a little diffferent. While he responded 2♣ on hand A, this was too strong for me to give up on showing ♥...but as I said, weaken it a little more, and I will bid ♣s.

This is why bridge is a great game, so many different theories on what is right.

Ben

[mishovnbg]

..............................................Hi Chamaco!..............................................
While other bidding change dramaticaly, responses to take out X are almost same as many years ago. Using transfers (cue bid and above) is not devoid of sense, but can lead to wrong sided contracts. This mean transfers from doubler too and very complicate bidding, despite it is probably future of bidding. Shortly: transfer responses can solve problematic positive responses due to possibility of second bid from responder - like after 1NT opening.

Back to the classic :
1. The classic bidding is: to keep level low with weaker hand.

Scoring: IMP

After (1♥)-X-(P)-1♠: With 0-5 HCP 1♠, with 5-8HCP 2♣

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In the example right bid must be 2♣, because 5-7HCP and longer suit. In most of cases you will have 3 cards in major to bid it with 0-4HCP.
2. The classic response is 2♥. I play one convention named "mini cue bid" by Philip Solle (great french player). 1NT response doesn't show stopper, but positive response unsuitable for other bid and is normally forcing for 1 round. It is similar to lebensohl and can solve problem when you may play 2♥ on 4-3 fit, while 3NT is cold because of good 5+ unshown minor suit.
3. The classic bid is 2♦ cue bid. But it is not game forcing, but round forcing!!! Major raise in same sequence is invitational, not slam try!!! Reason is with both majors and invitational hand you will don't know in which one to jump .
.......................................................................................Misho

[mikestar]

Trpltrbl, on Jan 31 2004, 03:11 AM, said:

mikestar, on Jan 30 2004, 11:02 AM, said:

The other cases have been covered well, but the cuebid needs more explanation.

(1♦)-X-(P)-2♦

is either any game force that isn't appropriate for a direct jump to game, or a hand with 4-4 in the majors and at least invitational strength. This is needful because doubler may well be 4-3 and we need to find the 4-4 fit. Doubler bids his 4-card major, with both he bids 2♥ to save space in case advancer has a GF with 4 spades and less than 4 hearts.

(1♥)-X-(P)-2♥ is GF as there is no need for pick a major.

This is the classic rule but many players double more freely these days, perhaps doubling a minor with 3-3 majors or doubling a major with only 3 in the other major. A regular partnership may prefer to use the cuebid more freely as a checkback for major suit length and have the jump advance show 5.

After 2 pd will bid his 4 card major if he only has that one, if he has both he will bid 3. And if my pd X without any 4 card major and no stopper I think he should have overcalled 2 or passed.

Mike

What should partner do with ♠AQx♥AKx♦xx♣Jxxxx?

[inquiry]

Trpltrbl style is a little different from mine, mike. You might want to follow my advise, a cue-bid of 3♦ by patner is looking for a ♦ stopper for 3NT. You are always out of room. If your partner is looking for a major, he has 4♦ to do that or he can bid one, then the other at a lower level. Three level cue-bids should more or less always be directed for 3NT unless a major fit is already found (or the cue-bid itself shows the major fit).

For instance, i said "I see nothing astetically wrong with 3♦. After 2♦, we were game forced, so if partner then willynilly bids 3♦ instead of 2 of a major, I play that as looking for a ♦ stopper". Alternatively, you can take Misho's approach, where 2♦ is looking for a major fit (here you would close your eyes and bid 2♥ on three-at least you are ruffing ♦ in the short ♥ hand. But if you like, still here, a 3♦ in response to his 1 round forcing 2♦ is asking for 3NT with a stopper.