[Winstonm]

From Time/CNN:

Quote

Many of the controversial interrogation tactics used against terror suspects in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo were modeled on techniques the U.S. feared that the Communists themselves might use against captured American troops during the Cold War, according to a little-noticed, highly classified Pentagon report released several days ago.

Entire article here: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0%2...27229%2C00.html

This seems to sum up the heart and soul of the debate - at what cost to U.S. freedoms, U.S. mores, and world impression should we be willing to pay in order to protect ourselves from outside threats?

When we adopt the techniques of our enemies, do we lose our own assumption of self-righteousness?

[luke warm]

i have one view according to my personal philosophy and a (sometimes) different view as a hypothetical leader of a country... that's one reason i could never be a politician, the things i foresee having to do would go against my conscience

it depends on your goals, imo... if you found yourself as the dictator of a country like ours, your actions would probably be based on your vision as it relates to the future of your country.. you'd have to decide what is or isn't important and what is or isn't allowable...

[Winstonm]

luke warm, on Jun 3 2007, 11:40 AM, said:

i have one view according to my personal philosophy and a (sometimes) different view as a hypothetical leader of a country... that's one reason i could never be a politician, the things i foresee having to do would go against my conscience

it depends on your goals, imo... if you found yourself as the dictator of a country like ours, your actions would probably be based on your vision as it relates to the future of your country.. you'd have to decide what is or isn't important and what is or isn't allowable...

On the assumption that the U.S. is still a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, the question is how much of our freedom, mores, and international image are we the people willing to sacrifice in order to gain some measure of increased protection? Is there some limitation that should be imposed, a line in the sand?

[luke warm]

again, it depends on your goals and the priorities you attach to each... for me, the answer is yes... but i freely admit that i'm not the person to lead if that leadership means taking actions that are ... well, actionable

[macaw]

The preamble to the US Constitution was rewritten about six years ago:

We the Corporations of the United States, in order to form a more perfect profit, establish price fixing, insure domestic fear as a control devide, provide for defense contractors, promote the welfare of the upper five percent income bracket earners, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our shareholders at the expense of the economy as a whole, do ordain and re-establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[Winstonm]

macaw, on Jun 3 2007, 06:03 PM, said:

The preamble to the US Constitution was rewritten about six years ago:

We the Corporations of the United States, in order to form a more perfect profit, establish price fixing, insure domestic fear as a control devide, provide for defense contractors, promote the welfare of the upper five percent income bracket earners, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our shareholders at the expense of the economy as a whole, do ordain and re-establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

You forgot Article II. "The right of the consumer to go hopelessly into debt to support corporate profits shall not be infringed."

[macaw]

Indeed.

[mycroft]

If you described the current state of the U.S., with Terry Stops (in conjunction with the "I'm worried about my security" searches, with everything found during that search being "in plain sight", Hiibel indentity checks, government tracking of interstate travel (er, sorry, flight; but wanna bet there will be some sort of Greyhound bus hijack in the next five years, and TSA-style tracking (sorry, security checks) being applied post-haste?), TIA-style database linking and accumulation, ostenatatious monitoring and tracking of subversives (sorry, protesters and users of the right of free speech), not to mention the total isloating of those protesters from their intended targets, extreme rendition and flying prisoners all across the country to frustrate the accused's right to a lawyer, subpoenas that not only is the target not made aware of, but the subpoenad institutions can't even confirm or deny receiving one, never mind specific ones, and all the rest, to a general member of the public during the McCarthy period - without mentioning which country you were talking about! - you would get a response of "yeah, those godless Commies. Aren't you glad you live in a free country?"

Well, are you? And is it? And what is going to be done about it? But as I've said for 5 years now, the goal of bin Laden is to destroy the United States. And every time a new Police State law/regulation/"regulation, but we can't show it to you. You still have to abide by it, though" shows up, I can't help but think he succeeded.

Michael.

[luke warm]

mycroft, on Jun 6 2007, 12:38 PM, said:

Well, are you? And is it? And what is going to be done about it? But as I've said for 5 years now, the goal of bin Laden is to destroy the United States. And every time a new Police State law/regulation/"regulation, but we can't show it to you. You still have to abide by it, though" shows up, I can't help but think he succeeded.

Michael.

yep, i agree... if the aim is to change america, it worked

[Winstonm]

This is such a truly complex issue that it could take an ecyclopedia set to try to unwrap all the layers of intrigue.

How many of us understand the U.S. reliance on petrodollars, i.e., being the world's currency of exchange for oil? How many know that pre-Iraq invasion, Saddam Hussein had abandoned the dollar as the oil currency?

There is actual justification on a "national security basis" for imposing the U.S. will on those who would abandon the dollar as the oil currency - the U.S. economy is completely dependent it.

My view is that the strike of 9-11 gave a group of like-minded men and women an excuse to set in place an agenda - and it is not what the terrorist have done to us but what we have allowed to be done by our leaders (Congress included) to us.

I am seriously of the mind that the only real hope we have is Dr. Ron Paul.