[Chamaco]

Hi all !

With my teammates we play a variant of precision, in which we have various ways to open (or respond) 4441 hands

1) 2H opening is the classical 2D Precision opening, e.g. 4=4=1=4, (43)=1=5, 4=4=0=5 hands, hcp about 11-15

2) 2D is Multi, either a weak 2 in M, OR any 4414, about 16-18/19:
after the 2NT inquiry by strong opener, opener bids 3NT and higher BELOW the sing to show the 4441

3) 1C:3x shows a positive response, 4441 singleton in a red/black suit, min(8-11) or max (12+)
opener can relay first step to ask if sing is high or low


The question is

AFTER the 4441(or 4315 or 4405) has resolved the shape, which method do you suggest to probe for slam ?

Among the keypoints I am sure I am missing (please enlighten me!!), here is a critical one:
1) is it more useful to set trumps in a certain way and proceed by cuebidding and KC asking ? OR is better to proceed in a relay-mode (so that the trump suit is ambiguous? In the latter case, how do we resolve the ambiguity?)

2) is it more useful to set trumps or to ask for controls (or AKQ slam points) earlier ?

3) Do you have suggestions on which (commercial or online) souces to look for when studying the slam bidding of these 3suiters ?

THANKS ALL !!

PS_ And yes, I now 3suiters do not come up all that often, but I'd like to explore some other tactics other than "Just don't bother"

[hrothgar]

To some extent, the optimal response structure will depend on the level at which you resolve shape. There are some good schemes that work very well if you resolve a 5431 with 3♦ or 3♥ bid that won't work nearly as well if you resolve shape at 4♣ or 4♦.

Here is my preferred structure playing MOSCITO

3N is to play. RR can zoom with an exceptionally strong hand
4♦ is a puppet to 4♥. RR can zoom with an exceptionally strong hand

Step = Asking for slam points, triggering denial cues
Step + 1 = RKCB in RR's longest suit. Ties are broken in order H>S>C>D
Step + 2 = RKCB in RR's second longest suit. Ties are broken in order H>S>C>D
Step +3 = RKCB in RR's third longest suit.

Here's a practical example. Lets assume that RR has just bid 3♦, showing 4=3=5=1 shape.

3♥ = Asking for slam points
3♠ = RKCB in Diamonds
3N = To play
4♣ = RKCB in Spades
4♦ = Puppet to 4♥
4♥ = RKCB in Hearts
4♠ = RKCB in Clubs

[Chamaco]

hrothgar, on Jun 2 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

To some extent, the optimal response structure will depend on the level at which you resolve shape. There are some good schemes that work very well if you resolve a 5431 with 3♦ or 3♥ bid that won't work nearly as well if you resolve shape at 4♣ or 4♦.

Here is my preferred structure playing MOSCITO

3N is to play. RR can zoom with an exceptionally strong hand
4♦ is a puppet to 4♥. RR can zoom with an exceptionally strong hand

Step = Asking for slam points, triggering denial cues
Step + 1 = RKCB in RR's longest suit. Ties are broken in order H>S>C>D
Step + 2 = RKCB in RR's second longest suit. Ties are broken in order H>S>C>D
Step +3 = RKCB in RR's third longest suit.

Here's a practical example. Lets assume that RR has just bid 3♦, showing 4=3=5=1 shape.

3♥ = Asking for slam points
3♠ = RKCB in Diamonds
3N = To play
4♣ = RKCB in Spades
4♦ = Puppet to 4♥
4♥ = RKCB in Hearts
4♠ = RKCB in Clubs

Hi Richard, I was aware of the system that uses the 4D puppet to hearts then pass/correct.


Some further questions for me are:

1- assume you need a SPECIFIC cuebid, is the plan: a. ask for slampoints then b. start denial cue? (can you start the denial cue without slampoints ask? and would it be reasonable ?)

2- when the denial cue has started , how do you signoff in 5 of a suit (when we judge that slam is too high ) if the 4D bid was bypassed ? I assume there is a furter signoff mechanism even if the trump suit was not agreed yet.

[jdonn]

There is something I came up with (though it's likely similar to other things that already existed) for what you are asking. I will assume opener's shape and whether he is min or max for the 11-15 range has already been expressed at 3NT or lower (not so hard to do in just about all cases. Even though it's not what you asked, I put what I think is a good method at for opener's rebids over 2NT at the bottom of this post.)

The idea will be to allow responder to sign off in game, or to bid keycard, OR to show interest in slam without committing to it (this third option is crucial, yet totally ignorred by many people). I don't consider the ability to cuebid a major issue. Also, I make it a point that when responder just wants to play game he is simply allowed to bid it, rather than going through some end signal or something. This is because just signing off in game is by far his most likely action, so I don't want to make him jump through hoops to do it. That is in fact my most important concern, I would absolutely refuse to play any method requiring me to go through a relay just to sign off in game, and I recommend you do the same.

Throughout the whole thing I want the method to be simple, not change based on which bid opener used to show his shape, not use denial cuebidding or anything, just to be very playable but still get the job done with just a modicum of judgement.

After opener's shape and min/max is known, responder bids
4♥, 4♠, 5♣: To play. 4NT would just be regular blackwood, unlikely but it could happen and there is no need for anything more complicated.
4♣: Relay forcing opener to bid 4♦ and saying responder wants to bid keycard in something. Then Responder bids 4♥ as keycard for clubs, 4♠ as keycard for hearts, 4NT as keycard for spades. Essentially just kickback.
4♦: This bid asks opener 'do you like your hand for slam?' If not he bids 4♥ and responder signs off (can sign off in 4NT). For practical purposes since it's so uncommon, I think it's fine to just have opener bid 4♠ when he does like his hand and let responder bid regular blackwood if he wants. If you want something maybe a little more in precise, you might have opener bid 4♠/4NT/5♣ to show 03/14/2 aces, and let responder's 5♦ next be a king ask of some kind. Whatever you want to do would be fine.


Here is the response structure referred to above after responder bids 2NT:
3♣ = any min (very useful, responder can often just pass it so this is how he bids invitational 2NT hands with 4+ clubs). 3♦ by responder is reask
3♥ = 4315
3♠ = 3415
3NT = 4414
(those bids the same whether over 2NT or over 2NT 3♣ 3♦)
3♦ = 4405 or 4♣ if max. Since this is the only hand shown above 3NT, max 4405, you can utilize the bids 4♣ and higher like 4♣ likes itself for slam 4♦ doesn't like itself for slam, and make rebids over those. Frankly it's too uncommon to be worth it, over the 4♣ bid you can simply place the contract almost all the time with the help of regular blackwood.

[hrothgar]

Chamaco, on Jun 2 2007, 10:47 PM, said:

Some further questions for me are:

1- assume you need a SPECIFIC cuebid, is the plan: a. ask for slampoints then b. start denial cue? (can you start the denial cue without slampoints ask? and would it be reasonable ?)

2- when the denial cue has started , how do you signoff in 5 of a suit (when we judge that slam is too high ) if the 4D bid was bypassed ? I assume there is a furter signoff mechanism even if the trump suit was not agreed yet.

Please note that I use this structure in the context of a full bore relay system. Accordingly, I have a few "gimmicks" that you probably won't be able to use. For example, I use relay breaks during shape resolution to switch between normal Roman Key Card Blackwood and Exclusion Blackwood.

Unfortunately, there is not "short" answer to your question. Auction termination during a relay auction is as much an art as a science. You will often have 2-3 ways to approach any given question. You'll need to determine the safest / most efficient way to get the information you need.

For example: Lets suppose that Spades are trump and you need to determine whether or not partner has a club control.

One option is to set Spades as trump using a RKCB sequence. After the Relay Asker has used RKCB, he has a wide variety of Control Asking Bids available to him.

Alternatively, Relay Asker can start by asking for Slam points and then follow up with Denial Cue Bidding.

Either path will get you the same information. The best choice depends on a number of different factors. The length of RR's Spade suit is probably the most important. If RR has long Spades and the Relay captain can initiate RKCB in Spades at a low level, RKCB + CABs will probably work best. If RR has short Spades, you probably want to use DCBs.

There is a very old version of my MOSCITO notes available at

http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/pdf/Mos...chardWilley.pdf

However, if you go to page 66 of the notes, there is a fairly complete treatment of auction termination with lots of example hands.

[kenrexford]

For about ten years, I used an idea initially in a strong-diamond canape system, later in a modified minor-suit structure precision system, and then later yet in a strong-club canape system, that handled three-suiters very efectively, both for game-inquiry and for slam-inquiry auctions. It will not directly help the 2♥ start, but some parallels might be useful for your own approach.

The idea was for 2♣ to show a three-suited hand, with 2♦ as the initial asking bid. This is Part I.

In response to 2♦, Opener would bid 2♥ with a minimum and a hearts suit (4414/4441/1444, or possibly the 5440 possibilities with hearts and a five-card minor). 2♠ showed a minimum without hearts (4144/4045/4054).

With maximums, Opener bids one-under the stiff (i.e., 2NT=4441, 3♣=4414, 3♦=4144, 3♥=1444).

This resolved much of strength/shape relatively low, meaning not bypassing the "normal" signoff levels when Responder would have escaped but has just enough to think about game, and low enough for more interesting slam auctions.

You will see that 2♣-P-2♦-P-2♥ is unresolved. With disinterest, Responder can pass, convert to a pass-or-correct 2♠, try 2NT (optional), or try 3♣ (minors). Some difficult hands are handled with an immediate 2NT. With stronger values, Responder can bid 3♦ after the 2♥ rebid, Opener bidding 3♥=1444, 3♠=4441, 3NT=4414. Thus, again sort of one under.

The one-under's also gain from occasional passing. Thus, one might pass 2♣-P-2♦-P-3♥ if Responder needed a maximum, heart support, and shortness in a minor, or something like that.

Anyway, back to slam. The one-under bidding allows transfers, starting with the short suit, setting trumps.

For example, 2♣-P-2♦-P-2NT(4441)-P-3♦ = transfer to hearts. This can be passed, if 3♥ is now the limit of the hand, of course.

Example #2 ("starting with the short suit" explained): 2♣-P-2♦-P-2♠(4144)-P-? 3♣ = to play. 3♥ = transfer. 3♠ = transfer (♣).

If Responder rebids after the transfer, this is a slam try.

So, you could have, for example, 2♣-P-2♦-P-2NT(4441)-P-3♦(tr)-P-3♥-P-3♠(Q)-P-3NT(serious)... "Serious" might most logically mean a void, if 5440 is possible. However, perhaps in some auctions "non-serious" makes more sense, meaning without a void, when the known pattern is minors plus a major, allowing 4♣ or 4♦ to define a void and define which suit has the fifth card.

Your range can be larger than a two-step range, BTW, if 2♣ is the opening. Imagine 11-15 extended to 11-17. With 11-13, minimum. With 13-15, maximum. With 15-17? Two options:

If 2♦ asking, bid above highest answer (3♠+ = 15-17). If you want to avoid bypassing 3NT without both majors, bid the stiff (or the other minor) above 3NT, with 3♠ being 4144 and 3NT 1444. Or, limit the 15-17 hands to 44 majors. Something like that.

If simple pass-or-correct (e.g., 2♥), bypass the "correct" option (2♠) to bid next-up (2NT) with a non-fitting maximum, or above that with a fit, describing type(e.g., 3♣ = fit plus short club, 3♦ = fit plus short diamond, 3♥ = fit plus short spade).

The high option can also be much higher, a split-range (e.g., 11-15, or 19-21, whatever).

You can also, alternatively, change the responses to 2♦ to handle a split range or larger range:

2♥ = same
2♠ = same
2NT = high range (3♣ asks for one-under shortness, Opener responding 3♠ for short clubs or 3NT for short diamonds)
3♣/♦/♥ = same
3♠ = short clubs.

This alternative allows even more depth. You can also change the 3♣ option (short diamonds) to 3NT, allowing 3♣ to instead show an even higher range (11-19, or a higher possibility). 3♦ would ask for the shortness. You can avoid bypassing 3NT after the 3♦ call by having 3M show shortness in the other major and 3NT show both majors, 4♣ after 3NT then asking which minor is short. You also would need to slightly modify Opener's options after a sign-off pass-or-correct option.

The options are relatively unlimited. The first version I played featured 2♣ as 4441, any three, 5-card minor possible, with 10+ (unlimited) HCP's. 2♦ asked, with somewhat step responses in roughly 3-HCP ranges, tied more closely to LTC than to HCPs. This worked very well, even in the rare case of competition.

Compare that with Mini-Roman 2♦, with a 2NT asking bid, a hopeless idea.

I mean, we even had the ability to play a correct 2NT quite often. Who can do that after a 4-by-1 opening????

[fred]

Many years ago Eric Rodwell developed a convention he calls 4C/4D/RKC specifically for the purpose you mention (though it is also useful in some other auctions in which trumps are not agreed, there are 3 possible trump suits, and the last bid is either 3S or 3NT). Here is how it works:

4C says: "Bid 4D. I will then use the next 3 steps to make slam tries in the 3 possible suits".

4D says: "Bid 4H. I will then Pass or sign off in one of the other suits."

4H/4S/4NT are RKCB in the low/middle/high suits.

After the 4C->4D, it should be pretty easy to figure out which suits 4H/4S/4NT show respectively, but obviously this depends on which 3 suits are possible trump suits. For example, if the 3 possible trump suits are hearts, clubs, and diamonds, 4H=hearts, 4S=clubs, 4NT=diamonds.

If the auction works out such that opener is able to show his shape and min/max below the 3S level, you may not need 4C/4D/RKC to get the job done.

Here is an example of an auction in "standard" where 4C/4D/RKC is useful:

1H-1S-2D-3C-3S-?

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

On a similar note to Fred's mention of Rodwell's idea, I have also used a similar concept (demanding that partner ask) in a completely different auction that has parallels here.

The idea is for 4♣ or 4♦, in some auctions, to agree that minor and ask partner to use RKCB. The main reason for this is to allow partner to use Exclusion RKCB if this is possible.

An example (using my 2♣ call, just for ease; use your own auction, of course):

2♣ (some 4X1)
2♦ (asking)
2♥ (minimum with hearts)
3♦ (which stiff?)
3♥ (stiff spade)
4♣ (agrees clubs -- you ask)

Now, Opener has two options:

4♦ = RKCB for clubs
4♥ = (next step) Exclusion RKCB for clubs (spades are obviously the void)

If your 4X1 opening can feature a void, this "you ask" call resolves this issue very nicely.

You can also do this for hearts or spades:

2♣ (some 4X1)
2♦ (asking)
2NT (maximum, stiff club)
3♦ (transfer to hearts, agreeing)
3♥ (OK; note that Opener has options here)
4♥ (cannot be sign-off, so asking for 4♠ RKCB or 4NT Exclusion)

This is less useful, however, as the "better" solution is probably for Opener to reject the transfer and start immediately cuebidding if he has a void.

[Impact]

HISTORICAL NOTE:-

With respect, the 4D "endsignal" was developed at least 30 years ago by various Poles to my knowledge (I first ran across it in 1977 in a very poor translation).

Prior to that time under some of the weirder (Polish) systems operating, the "reverse endsignal" ie 4D puppet and then "weak invitation" slam try had been in vogue.

There was also a graduated scale which used all 4 level bids in these types of sequences as puppets either for signoff or (when converted) from mild slam-try to slam -force depending on conversion base! Some of these used the different base transfer (when converted to another suit) to initiate different types of ask (although I have forgotten the details eg agreeing one suit but asking about sideK or concentration of strength in another suit - there were so many variations including KC, responses to include key Honours in next longest suit despite agreeing the converted suit,depending on base transfer etc eg 4C puppet to D converted to S differentiated from 4D puppet to H converted to S...)

Over time the now standardised 4D end-signal (albeit bids of 4NT up after puppet to 4H are non-standard generally) with the others as RKCB/SLAM for different suits by length became standard.

regards,