[paulg]

Bd: 15
Dlr: South 
Vul: NS
IMPs
                North
                S K8            
                H A42           
                D Q5            
                C AKQ973        

        West             East
        S J97652         S A3            
        H JT87           H KQ63          
        D 94             D T3            
        C 4              C J8652         

                South
                S QT4           
                H 95            
                D AKJ8762       
                C T             


West      North       East      South
                                    1D        
Pass        2C        Pass         2D        
   3D        6C        Pass       Pass       
   6D       DBL        Pass       Pass       
   6S       DBL        Pass       Pass       
Pass       

This is from a Pro-Am tourney, so there are two purported experts and two beginners. During the hand one of the experts called the director and suggested that one of the beginners had psyched.

I wondered if it was obvious which are the experts, and who would be most unhappy.

Regards

Paul

[Free]

I think South and East are experts. Not North, because I had that hand and I bid 6NT (sorry if you would apear to be the expert). And since E has passed all the time, why should he have psyched?

[luke warm]

looks like north and west to me... west since he probably thinks n/s have 6 vulnerable somethings, north since most beginners wouldn't double there (maybe)

[inquiry]

It is somewhat hard to say, given that we don't know the state of the match. For example, an expert can bid like an idiot when he/she needs a board and normal result will not help. Having said that, let's assume normal bridge here.

South's hand, 10 hcp, 10 cards in diamonds and spades, and spade ten to boot is worth a 1D opening bid. Almost all beginners would open 3D or maybe 2D, so this implies south at least has heard of rule of 20 and knows how to evaluate a hand.

Add to it, the leap to 6C over 3D by North looks like a beginner bid (yes, I have read the thread about bidding what you think you can make, and slam is not horrible contract, but, you need to investigate the best one). So for NS, if either one is an expert, it is clearly south.

Now for EW, here WEST tries to establish a possible sacrifice over a likely 3NT contract with 3D bid to take advantage of the vulnerability with a 3D bid. A beginner would have either bid immediately or not at all. So West is not a beginner at least. And over the 6D bid, if EAST has a clue what is going on, he/she would have bid 6H rather than pass given the clear preference for hearts over spades (although EAST showed good judgement not to hit 6C and force them to makable 6D). I am not particularily fond of the 6D bid at imps at matchpoints maybe ok, but -1100 if you are lucky is hardly a victory versus -1370 or -1390 (on the other hand, -1400 versus those is hardly a disaster rather the field bids the slam or not). But minus either telephone number is a disaster against 6C if it is going down (and here 6C has no chance).

So my guess is WEST and SOUTH are the "experts." I see no pscyhe and don't see why anyone would complain. But maybe West who made a foolish sacrafice wasn't too happy with his decision might have complained about the 10 hcp opening bid...but again, that is a sound rule 20 bid in my book.

Ben

[Gerben47]

SOUTH and EAST.
South misdefended and complained west had only 4 hearts and therefore must have psyched.

Just guessing of course...

[mikestar]

I guess SOUTH and EAST. I lke Gerben47's reasoning about the director call. I'm quite sure NORTH is not an expert, so that strongly implies WEST is not. West shouldn't sacrifice over a blast to slam by a beginner and an expert would know that.

As an aside for all of you 2/1 players, notice how well strong jump shifts work here. North responds 3C to 1D, then rebids 3N (or 4N natural over enemy intervention), showing good clubs and a balanced or semi-balanced hand. Now South can go to 6D (not 6NT as he may need to ruff out the clubs).

[inquiry]

A few issues raised in the responses here.

Mike suggest this hand is perfect example of why to play strong jumpshifts. Clearly when you have "the hand for a strong" jumpshift, that bid works pretty well. However, it is hardly impossible to get to 6Diamonds after South opened without having to revert to strong jumpshifts, nor is the jumpshift to 3C followed by 3NT a sure road to 6D either. But strong jumpshifts are a matter of personal choice.

Second, Free's 6NT rebid (I assume he means over 3D overcall) leads to a difficult contract. After the heart king lead, you have to run diamonds, keep the spade King, and squeeze EAST down to four clubs and teh spade ACE. When you discover clubs split badly, you throw EAST in with the spade ACE for a forced club lead into your tenace. I would much rather be in a "safe" 6 diamonds. This strip-squeeze should not be hard to execute, but you need the hand with long clubs to have the spade ACE as well.

Finally, Mike's guess that EAST must be expert based upon WEST bidding ove a "beginner's" jump to slam has some merit. But on the other hand, even beginners often get a great hand that just have to bid to slam. Besides, EAST's failure to bid 6H over 6Dx still speaks volumes, so I stick to South and West being the "experts".

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

Kinda hard to say, maybe North bid 6 because he is afraid his pd might get confused and also to make sure he gets to play the hand since he plays em much better then the beginner . Even beginners have heard of the rule of 20, so saying South is the expert because of that, doesn't convince me yet. I don't think a beginner would have bid 3 especially not 6. So I will say West is an expert, and as for N/S I am sure that an expert will do something smart over 6 and I don't think X qualifies as smart, but he does not have many options, maybe 6 NT, but he opts to go for the for sure +. Therefore I will say that North is the other expert. But I would not bet a lot of money on the last part.

Mike

[mikestar]

Ben is right, East's failure to bid 6H marks him as the beginner. Then South is the other beginner, North blasting because he didn't trust him not to mess up an investigative auction. In that position, I would have blasted 6C right over 1D.

Then who accused who of psyching? Must be West, as North wouldn't call the director to accuse South and he has no basis to acccuse East--the pass of 6DX is an obvious beginner error. West accusing South of psyching because he's mad at going down one more in 6S than he would have in 6H?

[billyjef]

Dear Paul and list,

I just need to say this thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As an "intermediate" member of the "Biginner Intermediate Lounge", which put on this "MEMEBERS CHOICE" tournament, it seems this is just more pettiness that has disappointedly increased in the Beginner Intermediate Lounge's, short history. Interesting this drama isn't created by the beginner intermediates, but of it's mentors and teachers. This was a tournament where the members were allowed to ask the person of thier choice to pd with them, preferably someone more advanced, but how advanced wasn't specified. In fact it was established in the first "pro/am" tourney that Pro didn't apply to just world class players, experts and pro's but to any of our mentors, teachers, friends of the club, personal and otherwise, who by their interest in the mission of the b/i lounge would give of their time to help it's members. So, not all the so called "experts" were experts, nor was their any pretension that they were. Likewise not all the "beginners" were beginners, nor was their any pretention they were, nor any restrictions that they must be. We ranged from Novice to World Class, with all the ranges in between.

The person being labled an expert here, was a friend of the Beginner Intermediate lounge whom I asked to play with another friend and member of the b/i lounge who didn't know of anyone to ask and was too shy to ask someone he didn't know. So I asked for him. The person labed as expert was kind enough to play with him at last minute notice.

The tone and implications of this thread neglects the truth, goodwill and intentions the person being discussed here. This distasteful thread has turned something someone did as a favor to me, to my friend, and member of the b/i lounge, and their interest and support of the b/i lounge into something demeaning and adolescent.

I am sincerely considering quitting the b/i lounge, and considering it isn't the first time I had to consider this, I should prolly just go with my gut on it.

Sincerely,
Jef

[keylime]

CODE

Bd: 15
Dlr: South
Vul: NS
IMPs
North
S K8
H A42
D Q5
C AKQ973

West East
S J97652 S A3
H JT87 H KQ63
D 94 D T3
C 4 C J8652

South
S QT4
H 95
D AKJ8762
C T

West is definitely one of the experts - that 3D bid shows a lot of courage and guts and clearly suggests over the 2D bid a major oriented hand. I know of only a few people that is creative enough to find that bid from the box over a 2/1 auction. The power of shape folks warrants in their eyes a bid. East, clearly a beginner, for not realizing what was going on (happens more than one might think).

From N-S, tougher. but I'd say by a nose South because North didn't explore slam, they simply blasted into 6C trusting partner had honors in diamonds. Imagine j9xxx for diamonds from South and then they get their just desserts.

In terms of fielding a psyche, W-E have every right to call the TD to see if there is an irregularity. I bet West called them. Since there was not one, bridge commenced, probably painfully for West as they wanted to be in hearts more likely than spades.

In terms of intent, I totally agree with Jef - this is supposed to be a fun event where mentees and mentors get together to play. I echo his sentiments deeply. The true intent of the event has been totally lost for the sake of one hand, one table - too much of a loss for my taste.

[inquiry]

BillyJef and others.

I agree to some extent that this thread could easily be taken as an affront, slamming either the "beginner" who is identified as such or the "expert" who may have made a mistake. On the other hand, a search of myhands looking for when cardshark played this hand failed to turn up the hand so identifying the parties is not so easy (I was eventually told who was who). Secondly, there are topics here worthy of discussing. I think things to think about are, is south hand worth an opening bid or a preempt. I said originally that most beginners would not think this was worth an opening bid and would bid 3D. In fact, the hand was played 16 times, 10 times the opening bid was 3D, and twice pass. That is 12 people who thought it was not worth an opening bid. Hallway, our B/I leader thought it was worth 1D (yeahhhh), as did three other people. This is not to suggest that 1D is "the right bid", just that it would not occur to most beginners IMHO.

The next issue was the leap the slam. Several people advocate jumping to slam over science when it seems like you should be in slam... even some in this very thread (Freee) who are clearly much better than beginner. In fact, several thought the 6C bidder was the expert and not the south player. So a bidding question becomes what is the right appoach with the north hand? This hasn't been discussed, but probably should be. Then there was the EXCELLENT pass of 6C by EAST. East heard the auction, knew he could set 6C but was unsure about setting 6D, so pass was clear cut. Don't force them out of a sure set into a down one. Great pass by EAST. But then EAST made a mistake by passing 6D-X. Clearly EAST has a preference between the majors. Passing 6D will not get you back to 6Cs. This exposes EAST, the point here is that EAST has to bid 6H. The pass suggest that partner take their own preference between the two suits.

And of course, WEST 6D bid has to be questioned despite the vulnerability. This bid puts too much faith in your opponents bidding.

I frequenlty post hands here where the wheels fall off the bidding cycle. These come from the BBO (alhough I don't farm the B/I lounge for the hands). Cardshark would have been better advised not to post where or when the hand was played. Also, the comment about calling the director was unwarrented. There are a lot of reasons to call the director to protect your rights, that have nothing to do with a psyche, and besides psyches are legal (and i don't see a psyche on this hand anyway). I have to admit that part was clearly petty and unrelated to the question at hand. One thing for sure, if he played this hand, whatever side of the table Cardshark's side didn't come off very well, as both sides made mistakes (he knew this when he posted it). If he was north/south, landing in 6C (where he should have played) was not prize. And if he was EW taking a phantom sac in 6S over a sure down 6C was not good bridge either. But I will say this, if anyone wants to look at my bridge hands using myhands, you will not have to look long or hard before you will worse mistakes than what was made at this table. I think that goes for EVERYONE reading this threads... did anyone see the last hand of the Bermuda Bowl, even the worlds very best make mistakes...what can we expect from the rest of us.

Ben

[paulg]

Fair to say that I am gutted about the direction that this thread has taken and I apologise profusely for the stating of the hand in a way that has caused offence. This was never my intention.

Many thanks to Ben for his peace keeping efforts - I support everything he says.

Finally, NORTH will be ecstatic that so many people consider him to be the expert; EAST showed how close to expert one can be by passing 6C; WEST showed a lot of imagination with 3D (better spades than hearts, otherwise 2NT or 3C) that we would do well to copy; and SOUTH's partners would fall off their chair if his preempts were ever as good as AKJxxxx.

[hrothgar]

I held the South hand and chose to open this 3D

To me, the hand looks like a "textbook" 3D preempt Red versus White.

I have a 7 card Diamond suit with 2 of the top 3 honors
I have no side suit Ace or King

From my perspective, the simpliest auction is

3D - Pass - 6N

I haven't run the auctual numbers, but i think that its more important to protect the open lead trusting that the clubs will run.

[Trpltrbl]

hrothgar, on Jan 12 2004, 01:13 PM, said:

I held the South hand and chose to open this 3D

To me, the hand looks like a "textbook" 3D preempt Red versus White.

I have a 7 card Diamond suit with 2 of the top 3 honors
I have no side suit Ace or King

From my perspective, the simpliest auction is

3D - Pass - 6N

I haven't run the auctual numbers, but i think that its more important to protect the open lead trusting that the clubs will run.

I actually agree that this a textbook, at least mine, 3 opening. Vul against Not and in first seat. But everybody has different style and that's ok. Not sure if I would leap to 6 NT though, maybe playing rubberbridge at 4 in the morning. There are other ways to find out where to play

Mike

[EricK]

hrothgar, on Jan 12 2004, 06:13 PM, said:

I held the South hand and chose to open this 3D

To me, the hand looks like a "textbook" 3D preempt Red versus White.

I have a 7 card Diamond suit with 2 of the top 3 honors
I have no side suit Ace or King

From my perspective, the simpliest auction is

3D - Pass - 6N

I haven't run the auctual numbers, but i think that its more important to protect the open lead trusting that the clubs will run.

I was going to post the same thing, but there's no point now.

Eric

[luis]

My guess is west and a kibitzer.

I can't see any other solution to this problem.

[sceptic]

hi all.

I would like to explain my thinking and rationalle behind my 6!c bid (I am in my own mind a beginner and I have never been accused of being an expert in anyway shape or form (disregard what my wife thinks of me, she is biased))

my pard had shown opening points and a preference for diamonds, I never considered a 3 diamond bid anything but distributional looking for a game in majors and being a disruptive bid, as I had 2 diamonds I thought about it and was going to bid 5 clubs to stop opps getting a major contract or even 5 diamonds crossed my mind, what I did know was we must have the possibility of a chance at slam with our points and distribution, so I went for it with all the skill and finese i could muster, they may even find a 5 major contract distribution was not good.

BANG 6!c was born, I may not have made it but scientifically I felt better for bidding it, the 6diamond bid, I could not resist x'ig as that was going downnnnnnn, even a beginner could work that out. the issue here is not about how bad i bid it is about it is about how bad i feel when some one throws thier toys out the pram, I enjoy this game and I love playing it, it is nice to play against the good players, it is nice to learn, it is nice to meet new people.

I was accused of not playing in the spirit of the game, I object to that as I really do like the game and I just want to have fun thats all, if I learn and improve on the way thats a bonus.

The 6club bid was made by someone with out the skills to find the correct contract thats all please all of you remember that when you play with me, I leave pshycing to the experts I have enough problems misinforming my partners without doing it deliberately.

[hallway]

None of this would have warranted a mention had everyone READ the Tournament DESCRIPTION !!!!! (I make no apologies for this being a pet theme of mine at the moment - love the new padlocks maybe (well maybe) people will wonder why they are there and READ !! )

The person calling the Director because they thought someone had physched most certainly DID NOT !!

In B/I Lounge pro/am style events the ONLY Director calls permitted are in conjuction with connection issues. In this instance it was a Member's Choice - they could ask anyone to play with them from Novice/Novice to Novice/*WorldClass

WE are ALLOWED to make as many stupid bids as our confused brains can dream up - the purpose of the excercise is to ATERWARDS to be able to compare our stupidities with the wisdom of the learned from which we hope to LEARN.

You are all making much too much of this. I accept Paul's apology I am positive that it was posted here in the Advanced/Expert section as something for the learned to muse upon.

I thoroughly enjoyed myself - it was the very FIRST B/I tournament that I have actually played in. For the record my 1D opener on that hand came about because I had not discussed a pre-empt range with my partner and in f2f I play 6-9 , the vul made it tempting but with 10 I decided to take the slow road which actually led to my partner playing the hand in 3NT making 7 !!!! so be it.

Quote

I am sincerely considering quitting the b/i lounge, and considering it isn't the first time I had to consider this, I should prolly just go with my gut on it.

I am saddened to read this Jef but as you say you have considered quitting the Lounge on other occassions then obviously the Lounge is falling short of your expectations . If I have been derelict in my endeavours it has been through no want of trying - I will take solace from the very large notice I have pinned on my office wall - "You can please some of the people some of the time BUT there is no way .......... you can please all of the people all of the time" I am sorry you are one of those the Lounge has failed to please - I am sure you will have no trouble finding a niche to suit you and I wish you nothing but the best of good bridging.

Seeing as this post is in the Advanced/Expert section and seeing as the vast majority of the members who took part thoroughly enjoyed the experience and I therefore have every intention of repeating these Member's Choice Tournaments from time to time I will take this opportunity to aquaint the Adv/Ext community with the ground rules which will apply. So if in the future you accept an invitation you will know what is expected of you.

Member's Choice = any B/I member can invite any BBO member to be their partner . Any Guest not a B/I Honorary member will be given a guest membership for the day. Members are urged to make the most of the opportunity provided to invite one of the Hons to partner them and/or seek a partner from among the multitude of skilled players to be found throughout BBO.
Tournament Conditions = All systems Allowed. All artificial bids to be alerted. Undos Allowed. Director Calls for connection issues Only. Table talk permitted
Purpose = To practice what has been preached . To learn from the learned.

I hope any of you invited in the future will accept the challenge of playing in a Tournament that is NOT a competition - remembering that there was once a time when your bridging skills were no better than mine