[mike777]

Team match with not very good opposition (if it matters).

You deal and pick up NV/NV the following beauty: Dealer: South
Vul: None
Scoring: IMP
♠ void
♥ AKT9x
♦ KJ87xx
♣ Kx

Borrowed from other thread.

1) What is your opening bid in your style of 2/1
2) partner responds one spade, your rebid and plan now?

[han]

1D
2H

[pbleighton]

Quote

1D
2H

Agree.

Peter

[mikeh]

1♦ then 2♥ then 3♥ if appropriate.

I will (very) reluctantly open a 5 card suit ahead of a 6 card suit but only with a very weak opening hand. This hand is too good for that treatment. Make my clubs Jx or xx, and I'd hate the hand to the point of maybe opening 1♥.

[jdonn]

I'll agree with 1♦ then 2♥ but actually I don't mind 1♥ at all. The heart suit is very good and diamonds relatively average, and though I hate to let the possibility of competition that has not yet occured impact me greatly, the fact I am void in spades is not to be ignored.

[mike777]

mikeh, on May 24 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

1♦ then 2♥ then 3♥ if appropriate.

I will (very) reluctantly open a 5 card suit ahead of a 6 card suit but only with a very weak opening hand. This hand is too good for that treatment. Make my clubs Jx or xx, and I'd hate the hand to the point of maybe opening 1♥.

Interesting I was wondering if you would reverse based on dist rather than hcp. I see you did.

[mike777]

pbleighton, on May 24 2007, 03:19 PM, said:

Quote

1D
2H

Agree.

Peter

I knew you would.

[bid_em_up]

mike777, on May 24 2007, 04:06 PM, said:

mikeh, on May 24 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

1♦ then 2♥ then 3♥ if appropriate.

I will (very) reluctantly open a 5 card suit ahead of a 6 card suit but only with a very weak opening hand. This hand is too good for that treatment. Make my clubs Jx or xx, and I'd hate the hand to the point of maybe opening 1♥.

Interesting I was wondering if you would reverse based on dist rather than hcp. I see you did.

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

EDIT:I will rephrase this last sentence for further clarification.

Meaning it is no longer guaranteed to be a strong hand in terms of having approximately 17 hcp, but it is now a distributional hand that will be 5M/6+m with appropriate playing strength.

[mike777]

bid_em_up, on May 24 2007, 04:12 PM, said:

mike777, on May 24 2007, 04:06 PM, said:

mikeh, on May 24 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

1♦ then 2♥ then 3♥ if appropriate.

I will (very) reluctantly open a 5 card suit ahead of a 6 card suit but only with a very weak opening hand. This hand is too good for that treatment. Make my clubs Jx or xx, and I'd hate the hand to the point of maybe opening 1♥.

Interesting I was wondering if you would reverse based on dist rather than hcp. I see you did.

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand, but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

It does? ok never heard that one before, what does he do with a 2 suiter and 17 hcp?

[pbleighton]

Quote

I knew you would.

Would you, if you were playing relatively standard 2/1, where a opening bid showed 12/strong 11?

I realize that this requires an act of imagination on your part

Peter

[pbleighton]

Quote

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

I completely disagree. You have made your bed, and now you must lie in it.

Peter

[jdonn]

bid_em_up, on May 24 2007, 04:12 PM, said:

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

I don't agree per se, it's just that once you have shown 5-6 it is understood you may be lighter and bidding more on distribution. It still shows something extra, you won't have a bare minimum.

[bid_em_up]

jdonn, on May 24 2007, 04:18 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on May 24 2007, 04:12 PM, said:

3H cancels the "reverse".  Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional  (5M/6+m) one now.

I don't agree per se, it's just that once you have shown 5-6 it is understood you may be lighter and bidding more on distribution. It still shows something extra, you won't have a bare minimum.

Really?

x AJ10xx AKxxxx x

This hand isn't the 17 or so hcp that a reverse normally promises, but I am fairly certain that you would open it 1D and rebid hearts, no?

It has nothing extra, to speak of, and is pretty much a bare minumum, but it does have good suit qualities and texture.

Would you do it on, say:

x Kxxxx AKJxxx x

This is closer, I would sometimes, but you may not. (Or you would sometimes, but I might not).

In either case, we both (I think) are saying the same thing. The 3H call cancels a "real" reverse in terms of having 17+ hcp, and instead implies 5-6 with good suits, and not as many hcp (although it could still have 17+). It could also be minimum hcp though, imo (see first example).

[jdonn]

Many people would open the first example with the king of diamonds less, so it certainly has something extra. And the second example is a totally absurd reverse that I would never make.

Yes we agree it can be lighter in highcards than a reverse would otherwise be, but where I stop agreeing is where you seem to be saying any 5-6 hand worth opening is good enough to reverse.

[bid_em_up]

pbleighton, on May 24 2007, 04:14 PM, said:

Quote

3H cancels the "reverse". Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional (5M/6+m) one now.

I completely disagree. You have made your bed, and now you must lie in it.

Peter

There once was a time, where the reverse always showed the extra hcp. From what I have both seen and been told by others, this is no longer the de facto expert standard. While it may not be "your" style, there is absolutely nothing to disagree with. It just isn't the way you play it.

More and more players, have migrated to the view of distribution is more important than hcp, and this is the trade-off of being able to show distribitution at lower levels that had you opened it 1H then had to rebid diamonds. At a minimum, you will be at 4D before you have shown the 6th diamond (if you ever get to show it).

[bid_em_up]

jdonn, on May 24 2007, 04:38 PM, said:

Many people would open the first example with the king of diamonds less, so it certainly has something extra. And the second example is a totally absurd reverse that I would never make.

Yes we agree it can be lighter in highcards than a reverse would otherwise be, but where I stop agreeing is where you seem to be saying any 5-6 hand worth opening is good enough to reverse.

So you would do it on:

x AJ10xx Axxxxx x

But not on:

x Kxxxx AKxxxx x

Did I read that right? What if it was:

x Axxxx AKxxxx x?

I dont think I said I would do it on any 5/6 hand. I only said that it cancels the reverse in terms of having to have 17+ hcp. You inferred the 2nd part, from where I do not know.

[han]

bid_em_up, on May 24 2007, 04:29 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 24 2007, 04:18 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on May 24 2007, 04:12 PM, said:

3H cancels the "reverse".  Meaning it is no longer a strong hand (in terms of hcp), but a distributional  (5M/6+m) one now.

I don't agree per se, it's just that once you have shown 5-6 it is understood you may be lighter and bidding more on distribution. It still shows something extra, you won't have a bare minimum.

Really?

x AJ10xx AKxxxx x

This hand isn't the 17 or so hcp that a reverse normally promises, but I am fairly certain that you would open it 1D and rebid hearts, no?

It has nothing extra, to speak of, and is pretty much a bare minumum, but it does have good suit qualities and texture.

x AJ10xx AKxxxx x is a bare minimum? That's crazy, you have a slam if partner has as little as Axxx Kx xxxx xxx. Take away the ace and you have a game. Bare minimums don't do that.

As rare as it is, the quote from jdonn is as clear as it can get.

[jdonn]

bid_em_up, on May 24 2007, 04:44 PM, said:

So you would do it on:

x AJ10xx Axxxxx x

But not on:

x Kxxxx AKxxxx x

Did I read that right?

No

Quote

I dont think I said I would do it on any 5/6 hand.  I only said that it cancels the reverse in terms of having to have 17+ hcp.  You inferred the 2nd part, from where I do not know.

What do you think 'cancels the reverse' means? Or should I have inferred some new imaginary minimum you didn't mention which is less than that for a 'standard' reverse but more than that for an opening bid?

Hannie's post says it all.

[mike777]

Ok so it seems I am being told no real expert would consider opening 1D and rebidding 2D on this hand over one spade let alone these other examples with even less hcp.