[jdonn]

Codo, on May 24 2007, 01:47 AM, said:

IF 3 Spade is non forcing, how can you play 3 NT if responder is missing a club stopper?

Well for one thing, this is the only auction where it's even a problem. On all others (1♥ 1♠ 3♣, 1♦ 1♥ 3♣, 1♦ 1♠ 3♣) the 4th suit is available below 3NT which makes things easier.
For another, if responder doesn't have a club stopper then it's unlikely (of course possible though) that you belong in 3NT opposite 10 red cards. If opener had very strong clubs like - KJxxx Axxxx AQT then the 3♦ rebid was wrong for just this reason, he can see his partner won't be able to bid 3NT over that.

Quote

If 3 Spade is non forcing, do you need to bid 4 Club with any given hand that has 12+ hcps and no clear goal?

If you are referring to having slam interest, you are limited to 13 and opener is limited to 14. How often are you going to be looking for slam here?
If you are referring to choice of games (essentially meaning something like 6232 game forcing), then yes 4♣ seems to do the trick quite nicely.

Quote

If 3 Spade is non forcing, why didn´t he pass 3 Diamond or corrected to 3 Heart?

Because he is 7114?

Quote

If I may quote:Misfits PASS as soon as possible ? Pd had 2 possiblilities to pass but choose to bid.

Firstly, partner bidding 3♠ was the first point at which anyone knew the auction was a misfit. For all he knew you had spade support. Secondly, he didn't increase the level of the auction, but us continuing to look for a fit would.

Quote

So without discussion I would never think that 3 ♠ was non forcing.
Maybe you can answer all the questions above and play 3 ♠ non forcing afterwards, but I won´t believe that it is a good bet to think that it is nf a priori.

We have two limited hands, one of which has described itself very accurately, and the other rebids its only suit at the lowest level. Short of having an agreement to otherwise, this is as nonforcing as it gets.

[mike777]

Amazing more than 50% choose to bid on.

What hand are you gals/guys giving responder here? Why?

[Echognome]

Fluffy, on May 24 2007, 01:34 AM, said:

Matt, I don't agree with that, he bid a non forcing 1♠ but that doesn't mena he cannot have 11-12 HCP, combined with what we ahve shown that means we are at game range.

Good point. I guess it's down to being an impossible question without agreeing on methods.

[Halo]

mike777, on May 24 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

Amazing more than 50% choose to bid on.

What hand are you gals/guys giving responder here? Why?

My partner has something like:

KQxxxx
Qx
Ax
xxx

give or take a Jack or some texture with tens or nines - this hand is my impression of his minimum.

It's bidding, it's a language and there are many dialects. I don't want to play spades opposite partner on the hand I hold.

OK he could be 7204 say. I don't 'simulate' for my next bid based on freaks.

For me my 1H...3D sounds fairly encouraging. But I'm not accepting partner's suggestion to play 4S with my Hx because I'm void.

So I bid rightly or wrongly.

[mike777]

Halo, on May 24 2007, 01:15 PM, said:

mike777, on May 24 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

Amazing more than 50% choose to bid on.

What hand are you gals/guys giving responder here? Why?

My partner has something like:

KQxxxx
Qx
Ax
xxx

give or take a Jack or some texture with tens or nines - this hand is my impression of his minimum.

It's bidding, it's a language and there are many dialects. I don't want to play spades opposite partner on the hand I hold.

OK he could be 7204 say. I don't 'simulate' for my next bid based on freaks.

For me my 1H...3D sounds fairly encouraging. But I'm not accepting partner's suggestion to play 4S with my Hx because I'm void.

So I bid rightly or wrongly.

ok, given this system, I would never rebid 3S with that hand example

[han]

Agree with mike777.

[inquiry]

mike777, on May 24 2007, 02:45 PM, said:

ok, given this system, I would never rebid 3S with that hand example

It is not clear this is the compainion hand. Gwnn posted the problem, Halo is telling us what the hand was. They may have been partners, it is not entirely clear. If you were playing 1H-2S as preemptive, then 3S rebid here is normal (and forcing). Since you are not, responder is stuck for a bid. 3S is not forcing in the quoted methods, so a 3♥ bid over 3♦ seems necessary

On the given hand, MisIry would end up in 4♥, which may not be the best spot, but that is where it lands. 2NT-3C-3D-4C-4D-4H-Pass

2N = clubs weak, or H+S or H+D strong
3C = could also bid 4C "raising the preempt"
3D = four losers, red two suiter... responder with two sure covers, and two possible ones in spades will bid at least game
4C = promises A or K of spades, denies a club control
4D = either two club losers, or the spade card promised is wasted
4H = cheaper game (5D maybe better, but can't get there, and 4♥ has no guarantee).

[Halo]

inquiry, on May 24 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

It is not clear this is the compainion hand. Gwnn posted the problem, Halo is telling us what the hand was. They may have been partners, it is not entirely clear.

Kind of silly comment.

Just to be really clear, I responded to Mike777 'gals and guys' what's your partenr got. I don't know the specific hand (as if that matters). If my hand causes you some emotion then it was worth describing.

[jdonn]

inquiry, on May 24 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

mike777, on May 24 2007, 02:45 PM, said:

ok, given this system, I would never rebid 3S with that hand example

It is not clear this is the compainion hand. Gwnn posted the problem, Halo is telling us what the hand was.

I think you misunderstand, if I'm wrong I'll surely be corrected but it looks to me like Halo was just giving an example of what he/she expects a 3♠ bid to look like. To me that looks like a perfect 4♣ bid if that could be understood as a choice of games on an auction where the players are limited to game values. I guess it's just a matter of weighing what I consider the slight chance you will belong in 3NT when responder can't conveniently bid it against the times responder would be forced to choose between ridiculous contracts when he lacks game values.

[Halo]

Jdonn has interpreted my comment correctly - so I am grateful to him/her.

[jdonn]

Halo, on May 24 2007, 04:14 PM, said:

Jdonn has interpreted my comment correctly - so I am grateful to him/her.

'Your Majesty' will be fine thank you.

[Halo]

But is it Mr Majestyk or her Majesty.

[jdonn]

It's "Your Majesty Jdown"

[gwnn]

Halo was very close actually:)

AJT7xx
xx
AQ
xxx

the bidding went

1♥-1♠
3♦-3♠
3NT

in the other room (opps playing pedestrian standard).

11 IMP to the bad guys (my declaring skills were not very good, getting -150 instead of -100 but it didnt matter really).

Finding 3NT seems hard but 5♦ looks very reasonable (on the given lie of cards it makes, hearts are 3-3 and diamonds 4-1, the spade 5-2 and the offside ♣A don't matter).

All in all, thank you for your ideas/suggestions. Of course both Codo's and Fluffy's suggestion of 3♠=forcing and Josh's 4♣=cog sound playable. We'll just have to see which one we'll adopt.

one more question: if 3♦ on ♣AQT is wrong, what's the "correct" rebid?

[jdonn]

gwnn, on May 24 2007, 11:31 PM, said:

one more question: if 3♦ on ♣AQT is wrong, what's the "correct" rebid?

2♦, it shouldn't deny a max or even a 5-5 max, just denies that a 3♦ rebid is descriptive.

[Codo]

Hi Josh,

so you prefer 2 Diamond to be from a 10 point count 5/4 to a 14 point count 5/5?
GL for your pd while evaluating his hand, I think you really give him a problem with many many common hand types.
Possible but maybe not best?

[han]

Codo, on May 25 2007, 04:17 AM, said:

so you prefer 2 Diamond to be from a 10 point count 5/4 to a 14 point count 5/5?

I can't believe you are saying this. In standard bidding 2D shows anything from 12 to 18 points. How can it be a disaster to play that it shows 10-14 points. Oh no, dear partner!

3D should be a very descriptive bid, telling partner that hearts and diamonds are the main features of your hand. Given that you likely don't have a major suit fit, AQ10 in the unbid suit is such an important feature that I wouldn't bid 3D with that either.

[jdonn]

Hannie, on May 25 2007, 12:50 PM, said:

Codo, on May 25 2007, 04:17 AM, said:

so you prefer 2 Diamond to be from a 10 point count 5/4 to a 14 point count 5/5?

I can't believe you are saying this. In standard bidding 2D shows anything from 12 to 18 points. How can it be a disaster to play that it shows 10-14 points. Oh no, dear partner!

3D should be a very descriptive bid, telling partner that hearts and diamonds are the main features of your hand. Given that you likely don't have a major suit fit, AQ10 in the unbid suit is such an important feature that I wouldn't bid 3D with that either.

Ditto.

[Codo]

Hi Han,

I sometimes have problems in German in telling the things I thought- even more in English.

But I thought the interrogation marks told that these sentences are questions, no opinions.

The main advantage of big club is the limited nature of most bids, so you should make the best out of your structure, there is no need to compare the 2 Diamond bid in this example with a 2 Diamond bid in a natural system.

You (and Josh) believe, that it is more relevant to show the position of your high cards compared to overall strength and shape. (in the few cases where you cannot have anything). I don´t have such a clear preference.
I would surely bid 2 Diamond with f.e. x, AKxxx,xxxxx,AQ too. There is a border, where you downgrade your length, but to bid 2 Diamond with
void, xxxxx,AKxxx,AQt is quite a position I would not take.