[han]

Practicing our 1D-2C structure this hand came up.

Qx
KJx
xx
AKxxxx

1D-2C
3C*-3D**
3H***

* = 4+ clubs, extras.
** = ask.
*** = shortness.

What's your plan? If you bid 4C then partner will cue 4D.

[inquiry]

I plan on bidding 3NT over shortness in hearts, if I played this. This is not a total signoff but a suggestion that I lost a little of my initial excitement.

[Cascade]

Slam seems to need as little as

♠ A K x
♥ x
♦ A K x x x
♣ x x x x

so i bid ...

4♣ 4♦
5♣ ...

partner should know that I was interested in slam (but maybe this is a matter of partnership style) and since I did not cue-bid either spades or hearts will know that I have good trumps and raise when appropriate.

[mike777]

Hannie, on May 23 2007, 04:11 PM, said:

Practicing our 1D-2C structure this hand came up.

Qx
KJx
xx
AKxxxx

1D-2C
3C*-3D**
3H***

* = 4+ clubs, extras.
** = ask.
*** = shortness.

What's your plan? If you bid 4C then partner will cue 4D.

Agree with 4clubs. You stated 3c shows extras.
5clubs

IF partner will not take control with rkc neither will I. I will not cue 4H but expect many to disagree.

btw are you happy with your 3d asking relay here?

[mikeh]

Did he have a splinter option available over 2♣? If so, what inferences flow from the non-splinter? I can't really express any useful thoughts on the original question without this info, which I would have at the table

[Echognome]

Partner's most likely shape is 3=1=5=4. 3NT may be a drag (initial heart lead and then we probably will have to avoid RHO getting on lead to make). Still, that's what I will bid at MPs.

At IMPs count me for 4♣ then 5♣. I'm debating between that and just a direct 5♣ with this hand.

[jdonn]

Signing off is nuts at any form of scoring after partner showed extras. Don't I just need AKx x Axxxx xxxx for slam? And that is not extras at all. So 4♣ for me, unless partner would specifically read 5♣ as good trumps without outside controls in our style, in which case that seems perfect.

[han]

mikeh, on May 23 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

Did he have a splinter option available over 2♣? If so, what inferences flow from the non-splinter? I can't really express any useful thoughts on the original question without this info, which I would have at the table

Erm, our system when we started bidding was different from when we ended, and Arend is typing up the notes. I believe that we agreed that 1D-2C-3M is a minimal splinter. So this auction really should show extras in terms of honors (or very unusual distribution).

[mikeh]

Ok, then I bid a forward-going 4♣.

If he bids the probable 4♦, I am going to be stuck if your method uses 4N as some form of keycard or (I can't imagine this) as an offer to play. I like 4N here (over any 4 level cue by partner) as: I have no cue available but my hand is too good to sign off in 5♣... are you still interested in slam?

So over 4♦, my 4N denies 1st round control in either major and therefore suggests good trump and an otherwise suitable hand. As others have observed, I don't need much from partner for slam to be a good bet. But I do need more than he might have: Jxx void AKQJxx QJxx is a great hand yet worthless in slam.

If this is unavailable, I fudge with a fake 4♥ cue and then, over a hoped-for 4♠, I bid 5♣... lying about the ♥ card but still not forcing to slam while allowing partner to bid on. If he bids 5♣ over 4♥, I'm done.

[han]

mikeh, on May 23 2007, 05:50 PM, said:

If this is unavailable, I fudge with a fake 4♥ cue and then, over a hoped-for 4♠, I bid 5♣... lying about the ♥ card but still not forcing to slam while allowing partner to bid on. If he bids 5♣ over 4♥, I'm done.

In our methods you'd be stuck and I was wondering if someone would bring up this lie. I would try it too.

[jdonn]

Hannie, on May 23 2007, 08:20 PM, said:

mikeh, on May 23 2007, 05:50 PM, said:

If this is unavailable, I fudge with a fake 4♥ cue and then, over a hoped-for 4♠, I bid 5♣... lying about the ♥ card but still not forcing to slam while allowing partner to bid on. If he bids 5♣ over 4♥, I'm done.

In our methods you'd be stuck and I was wondering if someone would bring up this lie. I would try it too.

I'm not sure I understand it. If 4♣ is already forward going then why not just 5♣ over 4♦? Partner will infer good trumps from the lack of a cuebid, no?

[foo]

In my partnerships, 1D-2C;3C promises 4+C and 15+ HCP (with at least ~10-11 of them being A's and K's) and 6- losers.

Given that we have a minimum GF 2/1, GOP needs a maximum, not merely extras, for us to have legitimate play for a slam.

The response to your 3D showing 1-H is not good news since it implies that your HK and KJ are wasted values.
In addition, many expert partnerships are going make a H splinter in support of C's with a 5- loser maximum hand.
The delayed splinter implies a medium strength hand, not a maximum.

6C on power is therefore out. That leaves 6C based on perfectly placed values.
Something like ♠AKx♥x♦AKxxx♣Qxxx...

That's awfully good. Good enough that most might consider it a valid direct 3H splinter. I have a hard time believing that Opener's hand is this good.
If I reduce my thought experiment to even ♠KQx♥x♦AKxxx♣Qxxx or ♠AKx♥x♦KQxxx♣Qxxx, 6C has no play.

I'm having a hard time picturing CHOs hand, and that's a problem.
In my partnerships, 4C! here would be 1430 in C's AKA "minorwood".
It costs me nothing to use it and if I don't like the answer, we can still play 5C.

In partnerships where 4C is natural, IMHO you are going to have a difficult time finding out what you need to know below 5C.


FTR, I have no interest in 3N on this board after the beginning of this auction at any form of scoring.

[foo]

weird partial duplicate deleted

[han]

foo, on May 24 2007, 12:06 AM, said:

That leaves 6C based on perfectly placed values.
Something like ♠AKx♥x♦AKxxx♣Qxxx...

As jdonn pointed out, slam is great even if you make the diamond king and club queen two small cards. A mere 11-count.

Besides

Quote

Good enough that most might consider it a valid direct 3H splinter.

As I said above, a direct splinter shows a weaker hand.

[Codo]

I would bid 3 Spade if this asks for a stopper and bid 4 Club after pds 3 NT bid.
I would bid 4 Club if this is asking for cues and bid 4 Heart after pds 4 Diamond bid.
I would bid 4 Heart to show my heart control, my interest in slam and my missing cuebids in diamonds and Spades if nothing else is avaiable.

In my prefered system I had to choose the later, because 3 Spade had been Chicane Roman Keycard and 4 Club RCKB. Nothing is perfect.

And I would aks my pd to increase the system notes from 55 to 75 pages, including detailed describtions about this sequence.

[han]

Quote

I would bid 3 Spade if this asks for a stopper and bid 4 Club after pds 3 NT bid.

It doesn't.

Quote

I would bid 4 Club if this is asking for cues and bid 4 Heart after pds 4 Diamond bid.

4C is not an asking bid, it shows at least slam interest.

Quote

I would bid 4 Heart to show my heart control, my interest in slam and my missing cuebids in diamonds and Spades if nothing else is avaiable.

This would show the ace. Of course, you can lie about it.

[Fluffy]

My first intention was to sing off since we had no extras over our initial bid (Specially if 3♦ is not always bid)

But then I see few hands where partner has 2 aces and slam has no play. This looks contradictory with my previous analysis, my guess is this is just because 6th club (specially headed with AK) is very strong extra.

I would bid 4♣ followed by 5♣.

[whereagles]

I think I would just bid 3NT after 3♥. I'm not too good at making up 15+ hands like you guys.

[inquiry]

Hannie, on May 23 2007, 04:11 PM, said:

Practicing our 1D-2C structure this hand came up.



1D-2C
3C*-3D**
3H***

* = 4+ clubs, extras.
** = ask.
*** = shortness.

What's your plan? If you bid 4C then partner will cue 4D.

I forgot to use ZAR points when trying to decide what to do next. My 3NT bid which I said was not a signoff was still too conservative. I now agree with a slam try. I would try 3♠ if that was a cue-bid and clubs are still the suit in focus. Otherwise, 4♣. (note if patner has AK of spades and AK of diamonds, he is probably not passing 3NT, but he might... )

Qx
KJx
xx
AKxxxx

ZAR points,.. 13 hcp, controls 4, distributional 13 = 30. When partner raises, he has 5S and 1 H (or more and less).. this comes to 4 misfit points, in a super fit, that is 34. Partner promised extra. A zar opening bid is 26, so extras would be in the range of at least 29. 34+29 = 63, with 62 needed for slam.