[Echognome]

jtfanclub, on May 16 2007, 07:19 AM, said:

Gerben42, on May 16 2007, 06:18 AM, said:

 

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The one that nobody seems to explain is a mother knowing the exact moment her child dies, half a world away. How is that one possible?

They do? Or they think they do? I'm not saying they are lying.

I don't know, but there's a number of documented cases.

Sorry, sometimes one has to call B-----t on something.

What are they sitting there with a camera on the mom while simultaneously dropping her child off a cliff?

Or was it an interview in a newspaper saying "I just knew something terrible had happened to my child." And since it's in a newspaper, it's 'documented'.

I'm not saying you're lying, I'm just saying I don't believe you.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on May 15 2007, 01:35 PM, said:

Rain, on May 15 2007, 11:16 AM, said:

Why do you sometimes know what your best friend or loved one is going to say? That's ESP right?

No, you know from past experiences with them and also their breathing timing and the way their lips move together that

A ) They're going to say something
B ) What letter that something starts with
C ) How they think and interact in general
D ) What they have said in situations like this in the past.

Given all that you can determine with great accuracy what they're going to say in a given situation sometimes.

I knew you'd say that.

♥

[helene_t]

jtfanclub, on May 16 2007, 05:19 PM, said:

Just because it's ESP doesn't mean it's 'magic'. Your body is, for example, very sensitive to oxygen levels...you can feel something is 'wrong' long before you start to suffocate (although carbon monoxide confuses it). What would you call that? Sight? Hearing? Smell? Touch? Taste? Or is it...extra-sensory? You have a lot more than 5 senses. [......]
Suppose it was telepathy. So what? That would just mean that we were releasing some phermone, or perhaps an electrical impusle, that could be read. To disbelieve in ESP is to disbelieve in science. Of course the body has abilities that we don't understand. And until we understand them, they remain ESP. That's what science is all about.

OK, if that's the definition then it's possible that ESP really exists. I thought ESP was something supernatural.

Anyway, my suspicion is that almost all "documented" ESP cases are either random events as described by Gerben, or some psycological phenomen like deja-vu, the placebo effect etc.

[mike777]

helene_t, on May 17 2007, 12:44 AM, said:

jtfanclub, on May 16 2007, 05:19 PM, said:

Just because it's ESP doesn't mean it's 'magic'.  Your body is, for example, very sensitive to oxygen levels...you can feel something is 'wrong' long before you start to suffocate (although carbon monoxide confuses it).  What would you call that?  Sight?  Hearing?  Smell?  Touch?  Taste?  Or is it...extra-sensory?  You have a lot more than 5 senses.  [......]
Suppose it was telepathy.  So what?  That would just mean that we were releasing some phermone, or perhaps an electrical impusle, that could be read. To disbelieve in ESP is to disbelieve in science.  Of course the body has abilities that we don't understand.  And until we understand them, they remain ESP.  That's what science is all about.

OK, if that's the definition then it's possible that ESP really exists. I thought ESP was something supernatural.

Anyway, my suspicion is that almost all "documented" ESP cases are either random events as described by Gerben, or some psycological phenomen like deja-vu, the placebo effect etc.

esp=extra sensory perception.......If no one has extra perception from senses or an extra sense..ok...it does not exist.

[helene_t]

mike777, on May 17 2007, 07:47 AM, said:

esp=extra sensory perception.......If no one has extra perception from senses or an extra sense..ok...it does not exist.

No Mike, an "extra sense" does not count. That's not what the word "extra" means in this context. "Extra sensory" means beyond your sensory system. I would say that's ilogical: what jtfanclub describes is sensory.

Subconscious perception is something even Gerben believes in, so that certainly exists

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Yes, now with Cern we can worry about "Ice-9-type transition" and "strangelets" per old comments from Nobel Prize winner,

That may be a good example as well, depending on taste

What I was thinking about was more down-to-Earth stuff like
- visual deception
- plants growing skew when the flowerpot is put on a rotator, presumably because they grow away from their perceived field of gravity
- ants that walk too far when returning to their home base after their legs have been artificially elongated (do they count steps?)

One of the good things about the U.S. is that your science centers are much better than the European ones. I especially liked the Exploratorium in San Fransisco and the Children's Science Museum in San Jose.

[Gerben42]

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- ants that walk too far when returning to their home base after their legs have been artificially elongated (do they count steps?)

African or European ants?

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I don't know, but there's a number of documented cases.

Newspaper Reporter: Did you feel anything special at the moment your son died?

Mother: Yes, I was sitting in the bus and I suddenly felt a shiver and I knew that something was wrong with my son.

[helene_t]

Jlall, on May 15 2007, 08:35 PM, said:

Rain, on May 15 2007, 11:16 AM, said:

Why do you sometimes know what your best friend or loved one is going to say? That's ESP right?

No, you know from past experiences with them and also their breathing timing and the way their lips move together that

A ) They're going to say something
B ) What letter that something starts with
C ) How they think and interact in general
D ) What they have said in situations like this in the past.

Given all that you can determine with great accuracy what they're going to say in a given situation sometimes.

Add to that: voice.

It happened to me twice that I knew in advance someone was about to tell me in the phone that a close friend just died unexpectedly.

There's nothing strange about that. We pay more attention to the way something is said, than what is being said. You can comfort a Japanese child (or dog) by speaking English (or Gibberish) to it.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on May 17 2007, 12:44 AM, said:

OK, if that's the definition then it's possible that ESP really exists. I thought ESP was something supernatural.

Anyway, my suspicion is that almost all "documented" ESP cases are either random events as described by Gerben, or some psycological phenomen like deja-vu, the placebo effect etc.

I guess it's just the way you think about it. It's like UFOs. Do UFOs exist? Of course...lots of stuff flying up there that we were unable to identify. Were they aliens? I doubt it.

Does ESP exist? I believe it does. Is it supernatural? I don't see why. These are just senses that we haven't yet documented. To me, supernatural is self-contractictory. If ghosts and telepathy exist, well, then ghosts and telepathy are natural.

To me, there's a trichotomy out there...
1. Everything can already by explained by the science we currently have.
2. There are things that we cannot explain through science, but could be explained with science with enough time, resources, and brains.
3. There are those things which cannot be explained by science (besides love, of course).

To deny UFOs and ESP exist puts you in the first camp. To claim that they're "supernatural" puts you in the third.

Put me firmly in the second.

[luke warm]

jtfanclub, on May 21 2007, 09:03 AM, said:

~~
3. There are those things which cannot be explained by science (besides love, of course).

To deny UFOs and ESP exist puts you in the first camp. To claim that they're "supernatural" puts you in the third.

Put me firmly in the second.

why "... besides love, of course?" ... maybe i'm offbase here, but are you saying one of these:

1) metaphysical entities don't exist, or;
2) metaphsical entities can be explained by science
3) metaphsical entities cannot be explained by science

[mike777]

jtfanclub, on May 21 2007, 09:03 AM, said:

helene_t, on May 17 2007, 12:44 AM, said:

OK, if that's the definition then it's possible that ESP really exists. I thought ESP was something supernatural.

Anyway, my suspicion is that almost all "documented" ESP cases are either random events as described by Gerben, or some psycological phenomen like deja-vu, the placebo effect etc.

I guess it's just the way you think about it. It's like UFOs. Do UFOs exist? Of course...lots of stuff flying up there that we were unable to identify. Were they aliens? I doubt it.

Does ESP exist? I believe it does. Is it supernatural? I don't see why. These are just senses that we haven't yet documented. To me, supernatural is self-contractictory. If ghosts and telepathy exist, well, then ghosts and telepathy are natural.

To me, there's a trichotomy out there...
1. Everything can already by explained by the science we currently have.
2. There are things that we cannot explain through science, but could be explained with science with enough time, resources, and brains.
3. There are those things which cannot be explained by science (besides love, of course).

To deny UFOs and ESP exist puts you in the first camp. To claim that they're "supernatural" puts you in the third.

Put me firmly in the second.

I always find this UFO question quite silly. Of course there are UFO's. Of course they exist. UFO's are unidentified flying objects. All kinds of flying objects are unidentified. That does not make them alien flying saucers.
I also worry about people who say they do not believe in UFO's. Do they not believe in clouds?

Yes, the definition of ESP must include extra senses. Does anyone have one, not that I know of.

[jtfanclub]

luke warm, on May 21 2007, 03:45 PM, said:

why "... besides love, of course?"

It was a joke, sorry.

[helene_t]

luke warm, on May 21 2007, 10:45 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on May 21 2007, 09:03 AM, said:

~~
3.  There are those things which cannot be explained by science (besides love, of course).

why "... besides love, of course?" ... maybe i'm offbase here, but are you saying one of these:

1) metaphysical entities don't exist, or;
2) metaphsical entities can be explained by science
3) metaphsical entities cannot be explained by science

Not sure why love would count as "metaphysical". As I see it, love is a concrete phenomena, reasonably well-explained by science. Of course it depends how excactly you define "love" and how excatly you define "metaphysical".

[Gerben42]

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To me, supernatural is self-contradictory

That hits the nail on the head. What I'm interested in is this: Do mediums believe in the supernatural? I know at least one person who used to work as astrologer, knowing full well that it is nonsense. I wonder how widespread this is.

How many mediums are aware they are just telling people what they want to hear rather than really contacting the dead / having healing powers?

We had a famous case in the Netherlands of a TV personality (Silvia Millecam) who was told by a medium that she didn't really have cancer but just an inflammation that would go away with her therapy, and that she should really not go see a doctor. As you can imagine this "therapy" led to a quick detoriation of her condition and then real medicine couldn't really do much anymore... After her death the DA filed charges against the medium but she was let off as there was insufficient evidence that she was responsible for Silvia Millecams decision not to see a doctor.

Although some merit has been shown of this placebo effect (people feel better because they are being told they feel better) I think this case shows the danger of these practices. When people are discouraged to do the sensible thing and trust the judgement of real doctors they can really be a threat to the health of unsuspecting people.

[luke warm]

helene_t, on May 22 2007, 02:35 AM, said:

Not sure why love would count as "metaphysical". As I see it, love is a concrete phenomena, reasonably well-explained by science. Of course it depends how excactly you define "love" and how excatly you define "metaphysical".

ok, forget love (for now)... i'd still be interested in knowing how folks answer those questions

[Fluffy]

Hannie, on May 16 2007, 03:22 AM, said:

I believe in ESP.

I live in ESPaña