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We play pretty standard Precision with transfer positives, 10-13 opening NT.
We have started using 1X-1M-2NT as showing a semi-solid 6+ cards in openers first bid suit and extra playing strength. We use 1x-1M-3x as extra playing strength and a solid 6+ card suit. 1D-1S-2NT might show xx-Ax-AQJxxx-Kxx. 1H-1S-3H might be xx-AKQxxxx-Kx-Qx. These are used by example not because they are necessarily prototypical.
Is this a reasonable treatment? What might be the disadvantages? What might be better alternatives?
I appreciate your thoughts.
jonathan
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meanings for 1x-1M-2NT
#2 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-November-01, 14:09
Hi, in all of my strong club partnerships I play this auction as showing 3 card support for partner and 6+D and extra values. So 1D p 1H p 2N would be something like x Axx KQJxxx Axx. Rebidding 3D with this hand might miss hearts, and raising to 2H isn't very descriptive.
with long diamonds you can always just rebid 3D, I don't see many advantages in distinguishing between a solid and semi solid suit.
with long diamonds you can always just rebid 3D, I don't see many advantages in distinguishing between a solid and semi solid suit.
#3
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Posted 2006-November-01, 14:25
A classical meaning for
1M-1NT
2NT
is the 'big H' hand, a 14-15 hcp 6322 with good suit and some scattered honors on the side.
Rigal's precision uses
1♦ 1M
2NT = max, 6 diams, no 3-card M
3♦ = max, 6 diams, 3-card M
1M-1NT
2NT
is the 'big H' hand, a 14-15 hcp 6322 with good suit and some scattered honors on the side.
Rigal's precision uses
1♦ 1M
2NT = max, 6 diams, no 3-card M
3♦ = max, 6 diams, 3-card M
#4
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Posted 2006-November-01, 16:24
USP suggests that you should differentiate between the auctions by virtue of whether it is Single-raise plus1 (ie over 1S response) or single-raise plus 2.
In any partnership which focuses on natural (as opposed to relay) bidding, the single-raise plus 1 (SR+1) is just too useful for multi-meaning bids to ascribe to it the one relatively rare hand that anyone has stipulated to date.
Not only can you solve the BWS nightmare but you can also incorporate (via next suit puppet) a range of hands.
In a different context using relays (where 1H is relay over 1D rather than natural) I stipulated:-
1D (multi 10-15) - 1S (nat nf)
2NT= a) minor 3 suiter with 4S
max hand with 3-1-4-5 or 3-1-5-4
c) semi-solid+ 6+minor max (defined as at least AKJxxx)
Now instead of puppet responder who is limited bids on a pass or correct basis: 3m= Pass or correct (Opener rebids 3H with 5431, 3S with 4S and 3NT with C over a 3D signoff)
3H= on-going opposite 6m but doubt about H and only 4S
3S= as above with 5S
3NT= strongly held H and values (probably top Honour in each minor)
In a more standard context:-
1D- 1H
2S=SR+1 - 2NT=puppet
?
3C= strength & shape similar to below but D suit weaker eg strong NT
3D= 6+D & 3H otherwise suitable for 3D direct
3H= economical jump 4-3-5-1 strong or fits gap in ranges depends on rem system
3S= 6+D & 5+S
3NT= differentiating from direct jump to 3NT by either H length or suit quality rather than strength
higher= strong 4 card H raise which does not fit within direct raise structure
If responder fails to puppet he is making a descriptive bid which shows a lack of interest in Opener's type!!!
Obviously details depend on remainder of system structure in either event - and the assumption is that change of suit is forcing (so that opener's rebid of 1S would not be passed).
regards,
In any partnership which focuses on natural (as opposed to relay) bidding, the single-raise plus 1 (SR+1) is just too useful for multi-meaning bids to ascribe to it the one relatively rare hand that anyone has stipulated to date.
Not only can you solve the BWS nightmare but you can also incorporate (via next suit puppet) a range of hands.
In a different context using relays (where 1H is relay over 1D rather than natural) I stipulated:-
1D (multi 10-15) - 1S (nat nf)
2NT= a) minor 3 suiter with 4S
max hand with 3-1-4-5 or 3-1-5-4c) semi-solid+ 6+minor max (defined as at least AKJxxx)
Now instead of puppet responder who is limited bids on a pass or correct basis: 3m= Pass or correct (Opener rebids 3H with 5431, 3S with 4S and 3NT with C over a 3D signoff)
3H= on-going opposite 6m but doubt about H and only 4S
3S= as above with 5S
3NT= strongly held H and values (probably top Honour in each minor)
In a more standard context:-
1D- 1H
2S=SR+1 - 2NT=puppet
?
3C= strength & shape similar to below but D suit weaker eg strong NT
3D= 6+D & 3H otherwise suitable for 3D direct
3H= economical jump 4-3-5-1 strong or fits gap in ranges depends on rem system
3S= 6+D & 5+S
3NT= differentiating from direct jump to 3NT by either H length or suit quality rather than strength
higher= strong 4 card H raise which does not fit within direct raise structure
If responder fails to puppet he is making a descriptive bid which shows a lack of interest in Opener's type!!!
Obviously details depend on remainder of system structure in either event - and the assumption is that change of suit is forcing (so that opener's rebid of 1S would not be passed).
regards,
#5
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Posted 2006-November-02, 03:59
Hei, here is as i play:
1H 1S
2NT max 14-15 with 4S
3C F1 Relay
3D/H=spl D/C
3S=5H4S22
3S good min 6H/4s
1D 1H
2S max 14-15 with any spl+4H
2NT F1 Relay
3C/D/H=spl C/D/S
1D 1S
2NT max 14-15 with any spl+4S
3C F1 Relay
3D/H/S=spl D/H/C
1H 1S
2NT max 14-15 with 4S
3C F1 Relay
3D/H=spl D/C
3S=5H4S22
3S good min 6H/4s
1D 1H
2S max 14-15 with any spl+4H
2NT F1 Relay
3C/D/H=spl C/D/S
1D 1S
2NT max 14-15 with any spl+4S
3C F1 Relay
3D/H/S=spl D/H/C
#6
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Posted 2006-November-02, 09:59
i've played 2N as a solid diamond suit, a good diamond suit and 3 card support and void splinter for the major.
"Phil" on BBO
#7
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Posted 2006-November-02, 10:34
Impact, on Nov 1 2006, 05:24 PM, said:
USP suggests that you should differentiate between the auctions by virtue of whether it is Single-raise plus1 (ie over 1S response) or single-raise plus 2.
In any partnership which focuses on natural (as opposed to relay) bidding, the single-raise plus 1 (SR+1) is just too useful for multi-meaning bids to ascribe to it the one relatively rare hand that anyone has stipulated to date.
Not only can you solve the BWS nightmare but you can also incorporate (via next suit puppet) a range of hands.
In a different context using relays (where 1H is relay over 1D rather than natural) I stipulated:-
1D (multi 10-15) - 1S (nat nf)
2NT= a) minor 3 suiter with 4S
max hand with 3-1-4-5 or 3-1-5-4
c) semi-solid+ 6+minor max (defined as at least AKJxxx)
Now instead of puppet responder who is limited bids on a pass or correct basis: 3m= Pass or correct (Opener rebids 3H with 5431, 3S with 4S and 3NT with C over a 3D signoff)
3H= on-going opposite 6m but doubt about H and only 4S
3S= as above with 5S
3NT= strongly held H and values (probably top Honour in each minor)
In a more standard context:-
1D- 1H
2S=SR+1 - 2NT=puppet
?
3C= strength & shape similar to below but D suit weaker eg strong NT
3D= 6+D & 3H otherwise suitable for 3D direct
3H= economical jump 4-3-5-1 strong or fits gap in ranges depends on rem system
3S= 6+D & 5+S
3NT= differentiating from direct jump to 3NT by either H length or suit quality rather than strength
higher= strong 4 card H raise which does not fit within direct raise structure
If responder fails to puppet he is making a descriptive bid which shows a lack of interest in Opener's type!!!
Obviously details depend on remainder of system structure in either event - and the assumption is that change of suit is forcing (so that opener's rebid of 1S would not be passed).
regards,
In any partnership which focuses on natural (as opposed to relay) bidding, the single-raise plus 1 (SR+1) is just too useful for multi-meaning bids to ascribe to it the one relatively rare hand that anyone has stipulated to date.
Not only can you solve the BWS nightmare but you can also incorporate (via next suit puppet) a range of hands.
In a different context using relays (where 1H is relay over 1D rather than natural) I stipulated:-
1D (multi 10-15) - 1S (nat nf)
2NT= a) minor 3 suiter with 4S
max hand with 3-1-4-5 or 3-1-5-4c) semi-solid+ 6+minor max (defined as at least AKJxxx)
Now instead of puppet responder who is limited bids on a pass or correct basis: 3m= Pass or correct (Opener rebids 3H with 5431, 3S with 4S and 3NT with C over a 3D signoff)
3H= on-going opposite 6m but doubt about H and only 4S
3S= as above with 5S
3NT= strongly held H and values (probably top Honour in each minor)
In a more standard context:-
1D- 1H
2S=SR+1 - 2NT=puppet
?
3C= strength & shape similar to below but D suit weaker eg strong NT
3D= 6+D & 3H otherwise suitable for 3D direct
3H= economical jump 4-3-5-1 strong or fits gap in ranges depends on rem system
3S= 6+D & 5+S
3NT= differentiating from direct jump to 3NT by either H length or suit quality rather than strength
higher= strong 4 card H raise which does not fit within direct raise structure
If responder fails to puppet he is making a descriptive bid which shows a lack of interest in Opener's type!!!
Obviously details depend on remainder of system structure in either event - and the assumption is that change of suit is forcing (so that opener's rebid of 1S would not be passed).
regards,
The problem is that responder isn't limited, so you really can't include hand type b here OR you have to use 3H as the only force (without hand b, you can always relay with 3C to find out hand type cheaply). If 3H was the force, then 3S=hand b, 3N and 4D is hand a (Usually you bid 3N unless its a wierd hand, but I hope we have stoppers in the right places!), and 4C and 4H are the Splinters.
Personally I prefer to just raise directly on the 5431's and call it a day or use 2H as an ART max raise.
#8
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Posted 2006-November-02, 11:04
The usual treatment is you have 2 bids:
a. 2N
b. 3D
and one of them shows just diamonds, and the other shows 6D and 3M. There is a debate about which treamtent is better based on the issue of correct siding NT.
If you play a as the 6-3 hand you are less likely to end up in 3N (since you will play in the major a decent amount of the time) but when you do you have probably wrong sided it severely.
If you play a as the 6 but <3 hand you are much more likely to end up in 3N you still have wrongsided it in many cases, but not as severely as in the other treatment.
Its hard to weigh the two.
Also, as has been mentioned a second hand type can be included in the 2N bid such as a splinter raise. When doing that its probably better to have 2N show 6D and 3 in M OR 4 card support and a singleton, and have 3D directly deny support. This way responder can sometimes just sign off in 3M or 4M without the opps knowing openers exact hand type (might effect the opening lead). But yes that does tell the opps that declarer has a 5'th trump which also helps them some.
This way after 1D-1M-2N
3C asks:
3D: 6-3 hand
3H Singleton Club, 4 card support
3S: Singleton in the other major 4 card support
Having said all that, the main reason to have 3D deny support while 2N shows support is the following:
Suppose responder has a 5 card major and slam interest. 3M directly would be to play, so you need a way of both setting up a game force and agreeing trumps. If 3D showed the 6-3 hand you have to use 4C as a ART slam try agreeing the major (3 of the other major is needed to figure out if you belong in 3N). If 2N showed the support, you can start with 3C and then bid 3M next to set trumps if partner is nice enough to bid below 3M, this allows for a comfortable slam auction.
a. 2N
b. 3D
and one of them shows just diamonds, and the other shows 6D and 3M. There is a debate about which treamtent is better based on the issue of correct siding NT.
If you play a as the 6-3 hand you are less likely to end up in 3N (since you will play in the major a decent amount of the time) but when you do you have probably wrong sided it severely.
If you play a as the 6 but <3 hand you are much more likely to end up in 3N you still have wrongsided it in many cases, but not as severely as in the other treatment.
Its hard to weigh the two.
Also, as has been mentioned a second hand type can be included in the 2N bid such as a splinter raise. When doing that its probably better to have 2N show 6D and 3 in M OR 4 card support and a singleton, and have 3D directly deny support. This way responder can sometimes just sign off in 3M or 4M without the opps knowing openers exact hand type (might effect the opening lead). But yes that does tell the opps that declarer has a 5'th trump which also helps them some.
This way after 1D-1M-2N
3C asks:
3D: 6-3 hand
3H Singleton Club, 4 card support
3S: Singleton in the other major 4 card support
Having said all that, the main reason to have 3D deny support while 2N shows support is the following:
Suppose responder has a 5 card major and slam interest. 3M directly would be to play, so you need a way of both setting up a game force and agreeing trumps. If 3D showed the 6-3 hand you have to use 4C as a ART slam try agreeing the major (3 of the other major is needed to figure out if you belong in 3N). If 2N showed the support, you can start with 3C and then bid 3M next to set trumps if partner is nice enough to bid below 3M, this allows for a comfortable slam auction.
#9
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Posted 2006-November-02, 11:37
We play 2NT as initially denying 3-card support, with 3♦ promising it.
The reason is that as well as having strong versions of both hand types there are the GF versions which come up from time to time. The 3♦ rebid clearly shouldn't be forcing, so the GF hand of this type goes somewhere else. 2NT is forcing, and also lower, so can include the GF version of the relevant hand type. We also put the GF version of the other hand type in there. As it's a lot easier to show support later than backpedal and deny support you'd shown, 2NT denies 3-card support unless it's GF. This does put some strain on slam auctions when the 2NT bidder doesn't have 3-card support, but when they have the 3-card support GF hand they clarify their values nicely.
The reason is that as well as having strong versions of both hand types there are the GF versions which come up from time to time. The 3♦ rebid clearly shouldn't be forcing, so the GF hand of this type goes somewhere else. 2NT is forcing, and also lower, so can include the GF version of the relevant hand type. We also put the GF version of the other hand type in there. As it's a lot easier to show support later than backpedal and deny support you'd shown, 2NT denies 3-card support unless it's GF. This does put some strain on slam auctions when the 2NT bidder doesn't have 3-card support, but when they have the 3-card support GF hand they clarify their values nicely.
#10
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Posted 2006-November-02, 13:06
We play:
1x 1y (including 1♣ 1♦ ... and 1♥ 1♠ ...)
2NT
as denying three-card support
1x 1y
3x
as showing three-card support
The first auction is unconditionally forcing.
The second auction is limited and not forcing.
Our continuations are:
1x 1y
2NT ...
3x weak and does not even promise support - "I would have passed a nf 3x rebid in a standard system"
new suit natural and forcing
3y natural and forcing showing at least six. c.f. 1x 1y; 3x 3y in standard which is best played as forcing
3NT to play - we tend to gamble on stoppers
4x natural and forcing (unless hearts)
4y to play (unless diamonds then forcing)
jump new suit cue for partner's suit
1x 1y
3x
pass to play
new suit cue for suit "y" (responder's suit)
3y to play
3NT to play - we gamble on stoppers a little but also tend to bid 5minor fairly often on this auction
4x natural and forcing
4y to play
1x 1y (including 1♣ 1♦ ... and 1♥ 1♠ ...)
2NT
as denying three-card support
1x 1y
3x
as showing three-card support
The first auction is unconditionally forcing.
The second auction is limited and not forcing.
Our continuations are:
1x 1y
2NT ...
3x weak and does not even promise support - "I would have passed a nf 3x rebid in a standard system"
new suit natural and forcing
3y natural and forcing showing at least six. c.f. 1x 1y; 3x 3y in standard which is best played as forcing
3NT to play - we tend to gamble on stoppers
4x natural and forcing (unless hearts)
4y to play (unless diamonds then forcing)
jump new suit cue for partner's suit
1x 1y
3x
pass to play
new suit cue for suit "y" (responder's suit)
3y to play
3NT to play - we gamble on stoppers a little but also tend to bid 5minor fairly often on this auction
4x natural and forcing
4y to play
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#11
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Posted 2007-May-16, 14:14
Assuming you play 1x-1y-2NT and 1x-1y-3x as Joshs suggests above (6cd suit and 3cd support or 4cd support and a stiff, max 6cd suit less than 3 cd support) then how do you play the following:
1h-1NT (forcing)-2NT
1h-1NT (forcing)-3h
1s-2x(game forcing)-2NT
Assume your opening NT range is 10-13.
Does your answer change if your opening NT range is 14-16?
jmc
1h-1NT (forcing)-2NT
1h-1NT (forcing)-3h
1s-2x(game forcing)-2NT
Assume your opening NT range is 10-13.
Does your answer change if your opening NT range is 14-16?
jmc
#12
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Posted 2007-May-16, 16:46
joshs, on Nov 2 2006, 12:04 PM, said:
This way after 1D-1M-2N
3C asks:
3D: 6-3 hand
3H Singleton Club, 4 card support
3S: Singleton in the other major 4 card support
3C asks:
3D: 6-3 hand
3H Singleton Club, 4 card support
3S: Singleton in the other major 4 card support
Without getting into the issues of which bid should be 3-6 and which should be (0-2)-6, how about the following.
1♦ 1♠ 2N
3♣ asks:
3♦: 3-6
3♥/3♠: Splinter in clubs/hearts as you say, but game invitational
3NT/4♣: Splinter in clubs/hearts, GF (not so likely playing strong club but possible)
Direct splinter over 1♠: Void
(random thought, 4♦ rebid there could be 4171, the double splinter people love to joke about in bidding problems
)1♦ 1♥ 2♠
2N asks
3♣/3♥: Game invite splinters
3♦: 5-6 in spades and diamonds, max
3♠/3NT: Better splinters
Direct splinter over 1♥: Void
1♦ 1♥ 2N: (0-2)-6
1♦ 1♥ 3♦: 3-6 (or reverse those, whatever)
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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