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forcing or not? biding

#1 User is offline   jugarul 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 17:49

sayc no other agreements
1♠ 1NT
2♣ 2♥ ...forcing or not?
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#2 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 18:01

Yes, a new suit by responder is always forcing in SAYC. However, responder's auction makes no sense, as he made a weak response (1NT), followed by an invitational plus response (2H).

In 2/1, 2H would be weak with hearts, and would usually be passed.

Peter
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#3 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 18:12

No, 2♥ is not forcing.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#4 User is offline   david_c 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 18:15

No, this is not forcing - it shows a hand too weak to bid 2♥ immediately over 1♠. Expect about 5-8 high-card points with 6+ hearts. Opener should pass unless he has something constructive to say: don't make the mistake of bidding again with a minimum hand just because you're short in hearts.
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#5 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 18:37

From the SAYC booklet:

Quote

Second-round forcing bids. A new suit response (other than after a 1NT
rebid by opener) is a one-round force. If it is a fourth suit in the
auction, it may be artificial.
.


It's forcing. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Peter
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#6 User is offline   david_c 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 18:50

I don't care what some poorly-written booklet says, this is definitely non-forcing.
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#7 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 19:07

Quote

I don't care what some poorly-written booklet says, this is definitely non-forcing.


LOL, you mock the Online Bridge Bible?

Peter
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#8 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 19:19

pbleighton, on May 12 2007, 07:37 PM, said:

From the SAYC booklet:

Quote

Second-round forcing bids. A new suit response (other than after a 1NT
rebid by opener) is a one-round force. If it is a fourth suit in the
auction, it may be artificial.
.


It's forcing. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Peter

Peter - this is not a "new" suit by responder - this is his "intitial suit". The 1N limited his hand hence his "intitial" suit bid cannot be forcing.

Poorly written booklet, for sure.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#9 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 19:21

Quote

Poorly written booklet, for sure.


Yup.

Peter
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#10 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 21:38

2♥ is obviously not forcing since responder has already limited his hand.
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#11 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 22:04

Obviously non-forcing. Basic bridge logic overrides the booklet, it always does.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#12 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2007-May-12, 22:24

jugarul, on May 12 2007, 06:49 PM, said:

sayc no other agreements
1♠ 1NT
2♣ 2♥ ...forcing or not?

Playing SAYC, once one partner has limited his hand in terms of hcp and distribution (see the 1NT response), he can never "force" the other partner unless invited to do so. 2H here by a 1NT responder is not forcing.
--Ben--

#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2007-May-13, 01:48

This is a sign-off, showing a weak one-suiter, too weak for an initial 2♥ response.

This is basic bidding theory. It means the same no matter what system you play (sayc, 2/1, SEF, Acol, WJ, Precision, whatever)
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#14 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2007-May-13, 05:24

Non forcing. The quote says, "Other than after 1NT" a new suit is forcing. The 2C bid is NF as it is not a jump shift and the 2H bid, although a new suit is also NF.
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#15 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2007-May-13, 06:37

Quote

The quote says, "Other than after 1NT" a new suit is forcing.


Sorry, but the "1NT" is a rebid by opener.

Peter
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2007-May-13, 07:13

Hi,

nonforcing.

See the booklet page 3, there it says, that 1NT shows 6-10
and is nonforcing.
Having made a nonforcing bid, hearing a min. opener, 2C
can be passed, 2H can never be forcing.
The authors of the booklet certainly believe, that this is obvious.

http://www.d21acbl.com/References/Conventi...tem%20Notes.pdf

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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