[Flame]

Hi everyone
We play 1♣ strong. 16+, 17 if bal, 20 if 5+♥.
Im not how good are our agrements over overcalls 1♠ and above.
We play transfers showing 6+ hcp, our doulbe shows bal 7+ and transfer to thier suit shows a 3 suiter hand.
I checked some ccs of experts and saw that they doesnt use this, they use something like suit = nat GF, double = any 5-7.
How do you use it ?
Also we play doubles as bal penalty oriented every time the doubler is behind the overcaller for example 1♣ - P - 1♦neg - 1♠
double here would be penalty oriented showing bal with some extra.
I saw that others play most doubles are t.o untill they reach GF.
Do you play forcing passes at low level for example 1♣ - P - 1♦neg - 1♠
can this be passed out ?
We are pertty new to strong club and need any info regarding competiting over it so thanks in advance to all the respoders.

[hrothgar]

Competitive auctions after a strong club opening never seem to get discussion they deserve. This is an extremely complex topic so its natural that folks like to avoid the subject, however, given the frequency of competition after strong club openings, you really need to spend some time and effort here.

Here's a few starting points that you probably need to discuss:

1. Lots of people vary their defensive methods dramatically based on the level of the competition.

(a) Over low level interference - typically X, 1♦, and 1♥ - people will typically use a variant of their normal methods

(b) If the opponents make an "intermediate" level bid, the defensive methods are based on a forcing pass in direct seat. For example, playing MOSCITO, I normally play that a pass is forcing if the opponent overcall is <= 2♥.

© If the opponents make a three level overcall, you probably want to abandon the forcing pass

2. As a secondary consideration, you need to determine the extent to which you want to vary your methods based on the definition of the opponent's methods. For example, you might want to adopt one set of methods over overcalls where you have a known cue bid and a second set of methods where you don't have a known cue bid. Associated with this, you need to make a decision whether or not you're going to trust the opponents "disclosure". Far too many folks claim that a 1♠ overcall shows Spades when its actually some kind of wonder bid.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Far too many folks claim that a 1♠ overcall shows Spades when its actually some kind of wonder bid.

Really? And what does the director say about that? In that case you really should vary your methods based on their explanation so you can hit them with a stick when the explanation was wrong.

[hrothgar]

Gerben42, on May 13 2007, 03:58 PM, said:

Quote

Far too many folks claim that a 1♠ overcall shows Spades when its actually some kind of wonder bid.

Really? And what does the director say about that? In that case you really should vary your methods based on their explanation so you can hit them with a stick when the explanation was wrong.

The opponents inevitably claim that they psyched...
The director's believe that playing a strong club systems is akin to cheating...
Even if you have a director who is remotely sympathetic, the recording system's a joke...

I've never even heard of anyone getting an adjustment after the opponents psyched a natural 1♠ opening after a strong club opening.

I think that you need to protect yourself in advance and operate under the assumption that many overcalls - 1♠ in particular - don't show a known suit.

[Gerben42]

What can I say. I don't think I'd enjoy myself in such an enviroment. They seem to be very effective scaring away the good players...

[jdonn]

Gerben42, on May 13 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

What can I say. I don't think I'd enjoy myself in such an enviroment. They seem to be very effective scaring away the good players...

I find his view quite cynical, and I agree playing with this frame of mind would not even be fun. I have played a strong club on and off at bridge tournaments for nearly a decade and been psyched against in person once or twice I think. This does not make me feel like I require some system change to guard against it. I can remember no times that I believe there was a disclosure error. Online of course it has happened much more, but I don't care about that anyway.

Bridgewise, I think it's fairly ridiculous to play a pass is forcing on opener after an overcall on the 1 level or 2 level. Aside from the fact that you are then really inviting them to psych you (all they would have to do is hit opener's suit to escape home free since he has to bid notrump it sounds like) your best result will very often be to pass it out. Even after a strong club it may be the opponents' hand, or they may simply have made a mistake overcalling and go down a few undoubled. When you are 2344 'strong notrump' and it goes (2♥) p p back to you why in the world would you want to bid?

[Flame]

jdonn, on May 13 2007, 09:50 AM, said:

Gerben42, on May 13 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

What can I say. I don't think I'd enjoy myself in such an enviroment. They seem to be very effective scaring away the good players...

I find his view quite cynical, and I agree playing with this frame of mind would not even be fun. I have played a strong club on and off at bridge tournaments for nearly a decade and been psyched against in person once or twice I think. This does not make me feel like I require some system change to guard against it. I can remember no times that I believe there was a disclosure error. Online of course it has happened much more, but I don't care about that anyway.

Bridgewise, I think it's fairly ridiculous to play a pass is forcing on opener after an overcall on the 1 level or 2 level. Aside from the fact that you are then really inviting them to psych you (all they would have to do is hit opener's suit to escape home free since he has to bid notrump it sounds like) your best result will very often be to pass it out. Even after a strong club it may be the opponents' hand, or they may simply have made a mistake overcalling and go down a few undoubled. When you are 2344 'strong notrump' and it goes (2♥) p p back to you why in the world would you want to bid?

Your idea about forcing pass seems to make sense, but i agree with richard on being ready for psyches.
Yesterday i held something like: AJXXXXX AX AKQ10 X
RHO Passed as dealer and i bid 1♣ LHO bid 1♠.
They were non vul and i thought its likely that he psyched, also unlike many cases where the psych just get you to an ok 3NT instead 4S, this time it felt like it can really kill a 6S for us. The result was nice, we made 7C (partner had a solid 7 cards but i declarered it ) .
It turned out that he really had 5 spades, but still it would have been nice to be able to show my suit.
I dont blame them for cheating just that when im favorite to own the hand it might be better to bid what i have and ignore thier bid.

[jdonn]

I didn't explain my thinking well. It's fine to have some systematic way to expose a psychic overcall. He seemed to be saying you do this because people lie about their agreements. I don't buy that most of the time, and even if it were true a person would accomplish nothing by worrying about it except making themself miserable.

[jtfanclub]

No expert here, but...mostly cut and pasted from the earlier thread.

Interference by the 2nd hand:

P=0-4 or GF with a penalty X hand (ie., we have the suit they named)
X=Semipositive (5-8 or so).
New Suit=Natural and forcing to 3NT (may stop in 4 of a minor)
NT=GF, balanced (or semi), stopper in bid suit
Cue Bid= GF, balanced (or semi), no stopper in bid suit.
Jump in new suit= semipositive (4-8 or so), long suit (6+), no outside A or K.

How forcing a pass is depends on the level, the partnership, and how confident the opponent is who overcalled. I would always find a call (usually an X) at the 1 level, almost always at the 2 level, usually not at the 3 level unless I have something to say.

Interference by the 4th hand is very different. We can pass those out.

1♣-P-1♦-1♠

Pass: Balanced 16-18 or so.
X: Penalty oriented. Balanced 18+ or tricks in their suit.
1NT: Balanced 18+, would rather play 3NT than their suit X'd (often depends on vulnerability).
2NT: 21+, suit well stopped.
New Suit: Nonforcing, does not show extras.
Cue Bid: 18+ but no stopper in their suit.

We don't have a good system to expose a 4th hand psyche. After 1♣-P-1♦-1♠,

with the hand mentioned ( AJXXXXX AX AKQ10 X), we'd just have to settle on doubled down 6 or 7.

As far as I know, this is standard.

[keylime]

Larry and I have built into our agreements the possibility of 4 card and canape overcalls over our 1♣. However, the most important thing by far is the concept of trust; Richard's post is both pinpoint accurate and alludes to the importance of having forcing pass (in our case pass-double inversion) agreements especially in high level auctions of 3M and such.

[dake50]

We use xfer advances, with X(orXX) for next suit promising 1-1/2DT also in case penalties is a bonanza.
Also above 4C, X is 2-losers in opponents' suit, ie no-slam warning. 'Take 500, maybe more since we have no slam'.
Forcing pass below 2S; above 4C; best guess at 3-level.

[jmc]

The best information I have found on pass-double inversion is in the Auken book "I Love This Game."

Do you have any other sources Keylime?

jmc