[cnszsun]

In 2/1 or SA system, I want to hear your treatment of the following sequence.
1m-1M-2N
1. Is 2N game force or passable?
2. Can 2N bidder holding 4 cards in responder's major?
3. If 2N denys 4 cards fit, how do you bid it with 4 cards fit and a balanced game force hand? 4M will the default bid, i think, any better solution?

[Stephen Tu]

passable, 18-19 bal, denies 4 cd fit, but could have 3 cd fit, this is very std.

With 4 cd fit, playing strong NT opening bid, bid 3M (18, bad 19), or 4M(good 19).

4M is kind of bulky, but really there is not good other solution without losing other useful bids. At least it denies stiff/void outside. Maybe if you were playing some sort of Cole type structure ...

Playing weak NT opening, bid 3M with 18-19 (since 2M can handle 15-17 range, less need to jump to 3M with 16-17 supp pt unbal hands), reserve 4M for 4225 20+.

[whereagles]

1. I play it as 18-19 and is passable. Follow ups include transfers.

2. Yes, but usually done only with some 4333s.

3. With 4432, the book bid is a raise to 4M: 1m-1M-4M and hope for the best. With 4333 either bid 4M or 2NT depending on the hand. There are other ways out but I never bothered to think about it much

[gwnn]

I echo what others had to say with one small remark: we need to know partner responds only on at least a good 5hcp. Otherwise the majestic leaps to 4M rate to work out bad, cause we're both stretching and disproportionate hands need more than equal hands. Of course with 18-19 balanced, 2NT is still mandatory.

[inquiry]

Now for something completely different. Thers is a school of thought that suggest on the following auction, 2NT pretty much always have four card support for the major and is game force...

1M - 2NT

of course we know this as Jacoby, Some people play it as 4 card support and at least a limit raise.

I happen to favor this treatment (welll either tthat or cheapest jump shift). Which brings us to the auction in question,

1m - 1M
2NT

When played as natural, 18-19 is fine, i would not have four card support for my partner. When i had 4NT support, with those hands, i would leap to 3M.

Now, I have found a slighlty different approach also has merit. This one is that

1m-1M
2NT

Shows a "jacoby like" raise too strong for 1m-1M-3M. The advantage here is that now 1m-1M-3M can be NT opening stregth, but distributional (and this NT stregth counts distribution). Now 1m-1M-2N includes mostly balanced hands strong if you combine some m9ni splinters and maxi-splinters with jumps to 4m and 4M. If you consider playing this, you will need to add Cole to your method, however, which many will not be willing to consider.

[Dwingo]

cnszsun, on Apr 30 2007, 06:32 AM, said:

3. If 2N denys 4 cards fit, how do you bid it with 4 cards fit and a balanced game force hand? 4M will the default bid, i think, any better solution?

Balanced raise on certain sequences

1♣ - 1M
3♦ can be played as Balanced 18-19 raise with 4 card support . This frees up

1♣ - 1M
4M to be played as a more distributional 4 card raise with slightly lesser HCP's.

1♦ - 1♠
3♥ can be played similarly.

You don't have this luxury with sequences starting with 1♦ - 1♥

[kgr]

I play every jump to 3NT - where 2NT is GF - as a balanced hand with support.
1m-1M-3NT is 18-19 HCP , 4card M and balanced.

[Gerben42]

Forcing with a 1-suiter in m

I know that's not the question. If 2N is natural, it is GF and 3NT is a solid minor with some stoppers.

[drinbrasil]

i play this way (you can addapt hcps):
1nt 16-18

1m - 1M
2NT 19-20 balanced (can have 2, 3 or 4 cards support)

general
1m - 1M
2NT - 3♣ ask
?
3M = 3 cards
4M = 4 cards
4 in minor 5minor+4major (5-4-2-2 hands)


1♣-1♥
2NT 3♣
?
3♦=no 3♥, have at least 4♣
3♥=3♥ at least 4♣
3NT=4♠-3-3-3
4♣=2-4-2-5
4♥ = 4♥ and no 5♣

for 1minor-1♠ you can deduce.

[Halo]

I am sure that some specific agreements can be efficient here.

But if you look at it from a natural(ish) bidding angle, then it may be best to bid 2NT on most balanced hands. You can bid 4M with 4-card support if the hand strongly points you that way (xx clubs v AK clubs for example).

I wouldn't worry much whether 2NT could be passed - why this constant obsession about once in a blue moon passes.

I said natural(ish) because I assume a 3♣ checkback as 'natural' if you play a 5 card opening system.

[pclayton]

In standard bidding 2N is not forcing. It shows a good 17 to 19.

Can it contain 4 cards in responder's suit? I hate to use the word 'never' but I suppose I would make the call on:

xxxx
AQT
AQT
AQJ

after 1♣ - 1♠.

If you want to use 2N as some sort of gadget, you need to develop some changes to your basic bidding structure. One would be using a 2♦ opening as Mexican showing the balanced. Another would be that all balanced hands with 17-19 (regardless of minor suit length) open with 1♦ and rebid 1N after 1M.

[Fluffy]

1x-1M
2NT is GF for me, but I've heard that it is not GF for anyone else in the forums.

It might have 4c support.

[suokko]

1. Passable 18-19
2/3. "fake reverse" to show 4 card support and 18-19. 1m-1M;2om. Same bid can show also strong splinter raises freeing splinters for 15-16 distributional hands. 1m-1M;3M is 14-16 with SGL

[Gerben42]

In strong NT partnerships (14-16) I play that 2NT (17-18) is not forcing and that 3♣ is Wolff signoff. In most weak NT partnerships 2N is forcing as nonforcing hands rebid 1NT. Playing a mini 1NT, 2NT should be NF again.

[barmar]

Fluffy, on Apr 30 2007, 01:08 PM, said:

1x-1M
2NT is GF for me, but I've heard that it is not GF for anyone else in the forums.

It might have 4c support.

To all the ones who said that this is GF, how do you bid the 18-19 balanced hands, which should just invite? Do you fake a reverse? Do you have a special treatment to show this?

[dcvetkov]

barmar, on May 2 2007, 09:45 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Apr 30 2007, 01:08 PM, said:

1x-1M
2NT is GF for me, but I've heard that it is not GF for anyone else in the forums.

It might have 4c support.

To all the ones who said that this is GF, how do you bid the 18-19 balanced hands, which should just invite? Do you fake a reverse? Do you have a special treatment to show this?

Playing it as GF, I dont see a lot of appeal. Presumably then it should be 19-20 hcp, but with most 20 balanced you would open 2NT. Also, most of my partners will stretch to respond light to bid 1 of major with reasonable hand, which means with less then 5 points. Then you need to add Wollf or some sort of checkback agreement to be able to sign off at 3 level.

I think more interesting are the follow ups after 2NT

1) What does rebidding responder major at 3 level show?
2) What does rebidding responder major at 4 level show?
3) What does bidding a new major by resonder at 3 level show?
4) What does returing to opener minor show?
5) 3♣? Checkback Stayman or relay to 3♦?


Thanks

[Fluffy]

barmar, on May 3 2007, 02:45 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Apr 30 2007, 01:08 PM, said:

1x-1M
2NT is GF for me, but I've heard that it is not GF for anyone else in the forums.

It might have 4c support.

To all the ones who said that this is GF, how do you bid the 18-19 balanced hands, which should just invite? Do you fake a reverse? Do you have a special treatment to show this?

with 18-19 rebid a forcing 2NT.

Instead of inviting with 19, what you should do is pass he 1m opening more often.

I have opened 1NT with 18 a couple of times, but it is very rare.

[han]

1. Non-forcing.

2. No.

3. With a gameforcing balanced hand I would have opened 2NT or 2C.