[paulhar]

http://www.bridgeclues.com:8080/quiz/HomeS...omePg=N&level=1


THIS DOESN'T APPLY ANYMORE - new problem today, so this thread is dead

This was an item on BridgeClues, a site that may be trusted by many up and coming players. Any comments? By the way, I expect anybody that looks at this will have plenty to say. (if my link doesn't work, go to www.bridgeclues.com, and click 'Bidding Hand' under 'Level 1'.)

For those of you unfamiliar with the site, you'll see a problem when you click this link. Continually click 'answer' to see more text.

[paulhar]

The fact that there's been 13 views and no replies tells me one of two things; either nobody is looking at the link or everybody agrees with what's said. Since I'm assuming the former, I'll save y'all the time by stating that the first supposition made is that 2h, double, redouble is SOS, asking opener to bid a new suit.

[pclayton]

Do you take issue that the xx is SOS, or the pass over the xx is a penalty pass of hearts?

[paulhar]

In due time, I will state many things I take issue with. I was hoping to gather some other players' opinions first, but it appears that the people on this forum don't have strong opinions. But to attempt to answer your question, I will state that I think that a penalty pass here is a playable treatment; in fact a lot of decent players have that agreement; but I don't believe it to be 'standard' (perhaps it should be if N-S know that E-W are playing SOS redoubles.)

[mike777]

paulhar, on Apr 29 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

http://www.bridgeclues.com:8080/quiz/HomeS...omePg=N&level=1

This was an item on BridgeClues, a site that may be trusted by many up and coming players.  Any comments?  By the way, I expect anybody that looks at this will have plenty to say.  (if my link doesn't work, go to www.bridgeclues.com, and click 'Bidding Hand' under 'Level 1'.)

For those of you unfamiliar with the site, you'll see a problem when you click this link.  Continually click 'answer' to see more text.

1) Seems terrible at first glance. xx of a wk two bid is runout?
2) See my recent post on what the pass of xx means of a wk 2 bid, there was wide disagreement by good players, Some said to play, others said no preference to partners x.

[Tola18]

What bothers me most here with the question, is XX is hardly the SOS redouble for escape here, as nothing says the D is for punishment.
Bad lesson for the lesser experienced.
Thus here XX should be the traditional showing strengh...

Next; whatewer it was, it may still be according to the bidding:

12+12 points + 5 non vulnerable, leaves 11 for the redouble which may be OK...
(partner with good distribution may even have some point less, thus E-W some point more)

And yes, a penalty pass may still be the best. I would pass.




Moreover, I notice the question isnt by Lawrence, but by someone other. Apparently the site broadens its horisonts.
EDIT. Possibly mistake by me. Look my post further down.

[paulhar]

Tola18, on Apr 29 2007, 11:49 AM, said:

Moreover, I notice the question isnt by Lawrence, but by someone other. Apparently the site broadens its horisonts.

How perceptive of you! I have been looking at these clues for over a year to gather ideas for lesson material and have never had a quibble with anything signed by Mike Lawrence (as about half of the answers on the site are.)

[Tola18]

paulhar, on Apr 29 2007, 11:59 AM, said:

Tola18, on Apr 29 2007, 11:49 AM, said:

Moreover, I notice the question isnt by Lawrence, but by someone other. Apparently the site broadens its horisonts.

How perceptive of you! I have been looking at these clues for over a year to gather ideas for lesson material and have never had a quibble with anything signed by Mike Lawrence (as about half of the answers on the site are.)

Actually, I suspect Im wrong. I have always assumed it was a site by Lawrence. One minute ago I looked at Lawrence own site, and clearly see The clues ARENT his own site but Anne Lunds and Leonard Lidstrom, but probably with cooperation of Lawrence.

My fault!

[Free]

The pass depends on the meaning of the RDbl imo. If the RDbl is SOS, I agree with everything on the site. If the RDbl is power, then I think pass is "you choose, no preference".

[paulhar]

Tola18, on Apr 29 2007, 12:30 PM, said:

paulhar, on Apr 29 2007, 11:59 AM, said:

Tola18, on Apr 29 2007, 11:49 AM, said:

Moreover, I notice the question isnt by Lawrence, but by someone other. Apparently the site broadens its horisonts.

How perceptive of you! I have been looking at these clues for over a year to gather ideas for lesson material and have never had a quibble with anything signed by Mike Lawrence (as about half of the answers on the site are.)

Actually, I suspect Im wrong. I have always assumed it was a site by Lawrence. One minute ago I looked at Lawrence own site, and clearly see The clues ARENT his own site but Anne Lunds and Leonard Lidstrom, but probably with cooperation of Lawrence.

My fault!

Even more perceptive - I've just went on the site myself and could find no reference to Leonard Lidstrom. Where did you find a reference to him? The Level 1 play and Level 2 bidding both are signed by Mike Lawrence so I can only assume that either it's his material or chopped out of material he previously wrote. The Level 2 play has an access error. Only the Level 1 Bidding is signed by Anne Lund. On a typical day, she signs two and Mike Lawrence signs two. Occasionally those signed by Lund also say 'edited by Ron Fischer'. The quality of those signed by Lawrence is quite high. I have frequently found what I consider to be flaws in the others, even those with Fischer's name attached.

I've given people plenty of time to respond, so now I'll put in my two cents.


1. I can't believe anybody in their right mind plays 2H-double-redouble as SOS.

2. Perhaps if it's ALERTED as SOS, South's pass could be penalty, but in pracitce, anybody that thinks this is SOS probably also thinks it's standard, so South, who will be in the dark, will revert to the standand meaning of pass, which is 'partner, i have no preference, you choose the suit.' Playing this pass as penalty is an OK treatment but hardly standard.

3. The futility of playing this redouble as SOS is shown by this hand. First, if West was 2-6-3-2, they would escape from their 6-1 fit at the 2 level to their 3-3 fit at the 3 level. As it is, West can hardly fail to take six tricks in 2H doubled by scrambling. If he's lucky, he can take the same 6 tricks in 3D doubled on a trump lead. I see 3 trump tricks and the AQ of hearts, but where is the sixth trick coming from?

Even if East is 5-0-4-4, it's silly to make an SOS redouble. East has no idea that the opponents are going to leave him in 2H doubled, and making an SOS redouble only alerts the opponents to the fact E-W are in trouble.

4. The text has North doubling 3D. North nade a minimum takeout double and doesn't have much in the say of surprising cards in defense versus 3D. If I were North, I would not be at all surprised to see the opponents make 3D doubled if my partner has a diamond void, since my KQ are likely to be onside, and partner's heart honors are likely to be worthless. On the other hand, if North has a real takeout double, South is the one who knows their oppoennts don't have a real fit and that they have no source of tricks. South should be the one to double 3D.

Yes, North does have some nice defense against diamonds. But if East and South are playing the standard meanings of their bids, and West has just done something silly, then E-W could have all the strength here, with East waiting to pounce on anything. West has just taken N-S off the hook and now North doubles with his 13HCP opposite possibly nothing! Or perhaps West has an Al Roth type weak 2 with 6-5 or 6-6 and 3D might be making on shape alone (especially if South has a penalty pass of hearts, making heart ruffs in dummy safe.) Or East has made his 'SOS' redouble on a strongish hand trying to trap the opponents into doubling them. In any event, North hasn't got more than he has shown (except possibly decent diamonds), and if South doesn't think that 3D can be beat, perhaps it shouldn't be doubled.

Let me give an example where E-W have decided to play this redouble as SOS and East picks up a hand that almost justifies (if anything can) this decision.

---

Now South wants to defend 2H doubled (South really doesn't want to bid anything) but South doesn't think 3D doubled can be beaten (and I don't think it can.)

[helene_t]

I disagree with just about everything on the site.

First, I don't think an SOS rdbl is "standard".

Second, assuming that rdbl is SOS I don't think that pass shows strength. It's ridicolous that the author says that South must bid with any weak hand, even on a 3-card. North has suggested shortness in hearts and East has promised shortness in hearts. South will typically have heart length and both hearts and the other suits rate to be positioned unfavorably. This calls for defending, especially if South is weak - a strong South might just blast 3N (depending on the vulnerability of course).

Btw, we have had the discussion before about the meaning of South's pass in case East's rdbl had been business. Frances argued that pass must be penalty - playing it as "you choose" makes it too attractive for East to psyche the redbl to avoid being penalized. As I recall the discussion, several posters agreed with Frances.

[skjaeran]

This is just ridiculous.
I've never ever heard about anyone playing SOS redouble in this position. And except for this site, I'm quite sure I never will.
Redouble is business here.
Of course - if someone played it as SOS, south would "always" have a penalty pass.

[Tola18]

Guys. Could it be they had some sort of mix-up?

Wrong bidding to wrong text? Two different lessons interchanged feks.

This could explain theirs these funny comments.

[ArcLight]

Mike Lawrence makes some of the questions.
In the answer they always say "Author: Mike Lawrence"

Anne Lund makes the others. They are either unsigned, or signed by her.

Prior to about a year ago, maybe till the end of March, Mike Lawrence made all the questions. Then they stopped using him, and the quality dropped dramatically.

I archived all the Bridge Clues for a 2 year period, and I stopped doing so when he no longer wrote all the questions.