[skjaeran]

In my methods 2♠ show a good three card raise, from a good 8 to a BAD 12. I'd invite game with 3♣ at any form of scoring, unless playing short suit game tries - then showing the singleton ♥ would be obvious.

But regardless of methods, I'd invite at IMP's with this hand.

[whereagles]

mike777, on Apr 28 2007, 08:26 AM, said:

Bergen does not force (direct3) level with all 4 card spade holdings Point in fact, judgement/exp crucial on many hands..ala Bergen.

well.. what can I say? I think bergen sucks in any case

as for pard's hand for the raise.. that sucks even more than bergen

[Free]

Invite, preferably short suit trial in ♥

[Winstonm]

It depends entirely on they type of game try available. If I have SS to use, I bid it, as even a MPs there is a game bonus and the same good play that turns a +110 into a +140 for a good result can also hold 3S to -1 when many are failing in 2S for an average minus, which is not a disaster. SS game tries are far and away the most accurate, but come up infrequently. Any type of help-suit try here is of no real value, as I need to know if partner's raise is based on cards located outside the heart suit and not in any single specific suit. SS game tries are by their nature an exclusion bid, a help try in 3 suits at once.

There are two ways to score in MPs - either outplay the field or outbid the field.
If I did reach a good 4S here I would play it as carefully to make as if it were rubber bridge, as being in game would assure a good score.

[mr1303]

I'd try a forcing 1NT as North, to show a bad raise to 2S.

Incidentally, I'd invite as South all the time playing constructive 1S - 2S.

[Halo]

Just another vote. Opposite a constructive raise I invite and prefer 3C long suit as the invitation.

[han]

mike777, on Apr 28 2007, 03:26 AM, said:

good grief..guys...partner more likely to hold 4 spades after one spade opening playing Bergen than ....4 hearts after one heart opener....

Likely this is just the usual mike777-(insert word of choice here), but just to make sure I'm not missing something important: would you please explain what you meant? In proper English sentences please.

[jdonn]

Hannie, on Apr 29 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 28 2007, 03:26 AM, said:

good grief..guys...partner more likely to hold 4 spades after one spade opening playing Bergen than ....4 hearts after one heart opener....

Likely this is just the usual mike777-(insert word of choice here), but just to make sure I'm not missing something important: would you please explain what you meant? In proper English sentences please.

I think what he is trying to say, if I read it right, is that when playing Bergen raises, 1♠ p 2♠ is more likely to have 4 card trump support which chose not to make a Bergen raise than 1♥ p 2♥ is. I haven't got the slightest idea why he thinks that is true, unless I'm just misunderstanding him altogether.

[mike777]

Hannie, on Apr 29 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 28 2007, 03:26 AM, said:

good grief..guys...partner more likely to hold 4 spades after one spade opening playing Bergen than ....4 hearts after one heart opener....

Likely this is just the usual mike777-(insert word of choice here), but just to make sure I'm not missing something important: would you please explain what you meant? In proper English sentences please.

Thank you for asking for clarification of my post.

Playing Bergen, I would think you would almost never have a 4 card heart suit for a raise from one heart to 2h hearts, since hearts are not the boss suit.

Playing Bergen, With 4 spades I would expect partner to use judgement much more often as to when to bid 2s constructive and when to say bid 3 clubs showing 4 spades and around 7-10.

In other words I would expect partner with a weakish 4 card hearts support to always get to the 3 level immediately. With 4 spades and a weakish hand I would expect her to bid directly to the 3 level less often. What hands are better for a direct jump( 3club bid) vs only a single raise with 4 card weakish/constructive spade support is tough and I expect an expert partner to know better than I.

[keylime]

If I play constructive raises at IMPs, I make a 2NT Nagy/Garozzo game try to ask which suit pard would accept a try in.

If just a regular raise or at MPs, I ditto Justin's post - pass and let's try to hammer them.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Apr 29 2007, 05:27 PM, said:

Hannie, on Apr 29 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 28 2007, 03:26 AM, said:

good grief..guys...partner more likely to hold 4 spades after one spade opening playing Bergen than ....4 hearts after one heart opener....

Likely this is just the usual mike777-(insert word of choice here), but just to make sure I'm not missing something important: would you please explain what you meant? In proper English sentences please.

Thank you for asking for clarification of my post.

Playing Bergen, I would think you would almost never have a 4 card heart suit for a raise from one heart to 2h hearts, since hearts are not the boss suit.

Playing Bergen, With 4 spades I would expect partner to use judgement much more often as to when to bid 2s constructive and when to say bid 3 clubs showing 4 spades and around 7-10.

In other words I would expect partner with a weakish 4 card hearts support to always get to the 3 level immediately. With 4 spades and a weakish hand I would expect her to bid directly to the 3 level less often. What hands are better for a direct jump( 3club bid) vs only a single raise with 4 card weakish/constuctive spade support is tough and I expect an expert partner to know better than I.

Good assessment, Mike. When you hold spades (boss suit), why preempt to 3S when you may well be able to play 2S and then later either pass or compete to 3S;
however, holding hearts, there is more urgency to preempt to shut out the opps suspected spades.

I really hadn't thought that through but think it exactly accurate. So the fact that this auction is 1S-2S yields a higher probability for 4-card support than if the auction had proceded 1H-2H and thus makes it a better candidate for a game try.

Although only a slight increase, Las Vegas has made billions over the years with only slight edges in the percentages.

Well done.

[Winstonm]

Jlall, on Apr 27 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

Or balance with 3H and partner bids 3S then I raise to 4 and tilt them.

LOLOLOL. SOoooo right. Nothing seems to feel worse than balancing the opponents into a making game.

[Apollo81]

I'd pass.

[joshs]

sathyab, on Apr 27 2007, 04:22 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

---

You open 1s and partner raises to 2s, opponents passing. Would you make a game try if you were:

1) Playing 2/1 with Bergen raises.

2) Playing 2/1, but Bergen is a city in Norway, not a convention on your CC (lifted from a profile of an OKBridge player )

At IMPs you would make a game try no matter what kind of major suit raises you were playing probably, but this is MP.

I would pass in either case, but its absolutely clear to pass when playing bergen. Yes the SQ, DK and CA is enough for game opposite 3 trumps (just need 3-2 trumps) but there are many hands with wastage in hearts that will not even make 3S, so you can't afford to try for the perfecto.....

[sathyab]

Thanks for all the repsonses. Most seemed to pass it especially if playing Bergen. I do want to add that the person who gave me the problem didn't tell me they were playing anything fancy at all, so the 1s-2s was the old-fashioned 'courtesy raise'.

The problem was originally posed to me the other way, he gave me the responder's hand and aksed me what I'd do had the opener made a game try of 3c. I suspected that a game try with that hand wouldn't be a unanimous choice among a lot of good players, hence the post.

The responder had AQ9x Jxxx 98x xx. Over 1s-2s, partner makes a game try of 3c and he adds drama by saying "your bid will determine if we finish 1st or 2nd in the LM-5000 pairs in Chicago". Apparently this was the very last hand they played in the final session, so it must have seemed that their final ranking depended on it.

My inistinctive reaction was to say "Looks like someone put a gun to your head and forbid you from playing Bergen", but as I was exploring the prospect of forming a partnership with him in the upcoming summer Nationals in Nashville, something polite like "Oh, looks like you were not playing Bergen" came out instead. If you were playing the good-old fashioned raise of 2s to mean anything from a bad, shapeless 6 to a shapely decent 9 HCP hand, I'd have no hesitation at all in bidding 4s with this hand over 3c. I have great trumps and a doubleton in the help suit.

As Adam and Josh Donn pointed out, this was indeed a game on a finesse, or in reality one of two finesses; spades were 2-2, Ace of clubs was off-side but, diamond King was in the slot, making it a fairly good game. He could instead have found partner with Qxx KJxxx 9x Jxx, which would be unlucky to fail in 3s; may be there're other hands that don't even offer such a good play for 3s.

At the outset, it appears that a game try is against the odd for there is an excellent chance of wasted cards in hearts and yet when partner puts down a good but modest hand the prospects of game are so good that you want to be there single dummy. If you were playing Bergen, if it went 1s-2s, KJxxx x AQJx Kxx is a quick pass in tempo to hopefully extract some indiscretion from your LHO. On the actual hand pd makes a constructive raise and I'd think that knowledge that he has the fourth trump makes it a game try (here playing 3c as constructive leaves 3d, 3h as game tries) or possibly even a direct 4s bid.