[mike777]

jdonn, on Apr 26 2007, 03:37 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 26 2007, 03:14 PM, said:

whereagles, on Apr 26 2007, 09:21 AM, said:

gwnn, on Apr 26 2007, 11:42 AM, said:

actual hand I held

AKx
Qxx
x
KQxxxx

1♣-p-?

Well, with this one you can, as said above, splinter.

But let's change it to

AKx
Qxx
xx
KQxxx

or, worse, have pard open 1♦ and you have

AKx
Qxx
KQxxx
xx

Without forcing minor raises you'd have to invent a major or bid 1♦/2♣ on a 2-card suit, respectively. Ok so that's bad, I agree. But many don't bother to include inverted minor raise because

1. inverted raises have problems of their own
2. problematic hands like those above are rare anyway

With both those hands it seems I have an easy 3nt bid. My hands are balanced, I have hcp in the majors. At MP I am going to ingnore 5 of a minor and at imps 3nt still has a chance when 5 of a minor might go down. The have not lead or overcalled the open suit yet. I lose for alot of silly reasons this is not one.

How about two unstopped suits?

Partner opens 1♦

KQx
xx
AKxxxx
xx


How about three?

xx
Qx
AKQxxxx
Jx

No problem partner opened one diamond and I have an limit raise with one/zero major suits stopped. I bid 2s limit raise(crisscross)...now partner bids his stoppers.

With game force and same situation, I bid 3clubs game force..

Agree play a minor suit game force bid here if that is your point.

[kenrexford]

IMO, there is nothing wrong or flawed with an approach that allows a three-card major response to a minor opening on GF or bust hands without clear direction, as temporizing bids. The one caveat to this is that the possibility must be understood, with appropriate catering to this possibility. Same for 1♥-P-1♠. Could be GF or bust with three-piece spades on occasion, if the theory is understood and applied by both partners.

[kenberg]

[marcD]

whereagles, on Apr 26 2007, 05:08 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Apr 26 2007, 08:41 AM, said:

Quote

Many people in Europe still play without forcing minor raises.

Where? Not here... Just a question from a confused European.

France, Spain, Portugal.

Cannot speak for Spain or Portugal but I guess that more than 50% of serious players play inverted minors in France now. It still true though that the standard is still old fashionned raises.

[Gerben42]

Some responses to various posts.

Inverted minors is not a convention, it's just a different treatment of minor suit raises than the "standard" (whose standard?).

***

In many countries the "standard" teaches things that are not played by tournament players. These include 16 - 18 NT, Acol two bids and non-inverted minors (i.e. 2m weaker than 3m). These "standard" systems are so resistent to change that beginners have to go through two phases if they want to become tournament players.

Phase 1: Learning the "standard" system.

Phase 2: Learning the "real" system.

Since the "real" system need not be more complicated than the "standard" system this seems kind of backward but as I said, very resistent to change.

***

No system is perfect but you will have to look hard to find an expert saying it is worse than non-inverted, simply because hands become virtually unbiddable without a forcing raise.