[plaur]

Scoring: MP

p - p - p - 1♦
p - 1♥-p - 2♦
all pass

---

How much does opener need for a 3♦ jump in standard american / SAYC ?
I am playing an Acol'ish system offline where 3 ♦ is 15-17 HCP and a 6 card suit, so these auctions often bite me when playing online.
Would you bid 3♣ as responder over 2♦? I know opener opened in 4th hand with max 3 spades, so he figures to have a good hand, but I still thought he was 12-14.

[pbleighton]

Quote

How much does opener need for a 3D jump in standard american / SAYC ?

It varies by partnership, but generally good 16/17. Less than 16 would be with a 7 card suit or a solid 6 card suit.

The North hand qualifies, though you would like to have a better suit.

After 2D, I wouldn't bid 3C, since a new suit at the 3 level is forcing to game in Standard American. At matchpoints, I'd pass or bid 3D, depending on how I was feeling. At imps I would always bid 3D.

Peter

[Stephen Tu]

Yeesh. That north hand is like a maximum 3d rebid, nowhere close to being a 2d rebid. It's close to a jump shift rebid although that would be somewhat awkward with that hand. This would be a good hand for the artificial 2S j.s. gadget I like to play, make it easier to reach 4H confidently. Here responder would have to guess to rebid 3h on the JT9 high 5 bagger, somewhat unclear. Either that or opener could guess to jump raise with 3H instead, probably not end of world if end up in a 4-3 fit.

Jump rebid in SA is supposed to be ~16-18 "points", including distributional points, with a good 6 cd suit. That translates to ~good 14-17 HCP depending on suit quality & other factors, probably about same as your Acol.

On the responding hand, I think it's just worth 3d esp. if playing weak 2d openings; if opener could open 2d on some hands that makes his rebids a shade higher in strength.

[jdonn]

Stephen Tu, on May 4 2007, 09:31 PM, said:

Yeesh. That north hand is like a maximum 3d rebid, nowhere close to being a 2d rebid. It's close to a jump shift rebid although that would be somewhat awkward with that hand. This would be a good hand for the artificial 2S j.s. gadget I like to play, make it easier to reach 4H confidently. Here responder would have to guess to rebid 3h on the JT9 high 5 bagger, somewhat unclear. Either that or opener could guess to jump raise with 3H instead, probably not end of world if end up in a 4-3 fit.

Jump rebid in SA is supposed to be ~16-18 "points", including distributional points, with a good 6 cd suit. That translates to ~good 14-17 HCP depending on suit quality & other factors, probably about same as your Acol.

On the responding hand, I think it's just worth 3d esp. if playing weak 2d openings; if opener could open 2d on some hands that makes his rebids a shade higher in strength.

All the gadgetry is nice but...

North would save himself some monster headaches if he would just either open 1NT or rebid 2NT depending what he feels his hand is worth. This hand is a primo example of what people are talking about when they say opening 1NT simplifies the auction.

[kenrexford]

1NT, as suggested, solves a world of hurt.

3♦ is a call that causes problems. You show value, but you preempt the partnership when you really want to consider a heart contract. You also pass right by the one suit that you need stopped for 3NT.

Raising heart immediately might work, or it might fail miserably. That's the Vegas bid.

An alternative I kind of like is a "simple" 2♣. If partner gives you the expected courtesy correction (2♦), you can bid 2♥ and sort-of show your hand (the heart suit and some of your diamonds, at least). You can also correct 3♣, immediate or delayed, to 3♦. It might also be tricky stuff if you end up in 3NT. 2♣ ain't the Vegas call. It might be the white jacket call. But, I like white jacket calls, sometimes.

This time, though, I come back to the mundane 1NT opening. Best solution.

Once you start with 1♦, then pick anything you like. If forced to start 1♦, I'll jump on the crazy train and bid 2♣.

[han]

Agree with Justin that this hand is WAY too good for a 1NT opener. I don't have strong feelings about a 3D versus 2NT rebid, I think it is also too good for 2D.

[skjaeran]

This hand is far too strong to open a 15-17NT.
The suit is to bad for a jump rebid IMO.
I prefer rebidding 2NT, or even 2♦ - the latter might lead to missing game on occasion.

South had an obvious raise to 3♦ IMO (even being a light opener).

[mcphee]

Players can choose to upgrade this hand to a 2NT re-bid, open 1N if they elect, re-bid 3D (a bit of a skinny suit). It's easy to see if any of these 3 choices were made game would be reached. However, responder simply must not pass the 2D rebid. Qx in support of a 6 card suit is not shabby, and game would also have now been reached.

[plaur]

Thank you for the answers. Can you help me try to learn why responder should bid on after 2♦?
I understand I have a good hand. ♦D is good now, ♣AK are good, nice J109 combo in ♥. However, opener has made a minimum rebid (in the example he has a way stronger hand that I thought possible, I regret posting it now), so I was thinking opener has a maximum of 14 HCP or a bad 15?
Trying to reach 3NT at MP's with a known shortness in spades and a minimum of HP seems awfull agressive. 5♦ is out too, so that leaves 4♥. If responder bids 3♦, does that imply 5♥? I think not and if opener chooses to bid 3♥ over 3♦ with three card support, he is risking to play on a 4-3 fit.

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on May 4 2007, 11:39 PM, said:

A 1N opening? Are you guys for real lol? Its a prime 17 with a decent 6 card suit. It's closer to a 2N opener than a 1N opener (slight exaggeration). I open 1N whenever possible and I really couldn't imagine it with this hand.

Rebidding 2N would certainly be a possibility though as 3D makes getting to hearts difficult and the suit is kind of weak for that bid. The south hand is worth a 3D bid over 2D.

Dead right. 1♦...2NT makes more sense.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

2D is an underbid.
Instead of 3C, which by an unpassed hand would be
game forcing, 3D is an option, but pass is not out
of this world.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

plaur, on May 5 2007, 08:17 AM, said:

Thank you for the answers. Can you help me try to learn why responder should bid on after 2♦?
I understand I have a good hand. ♦D is good now, ♣AK are good, nice J109 combo in ♥. However, opener has made a minimum rebid (in the example he has a way stronger hand that I thought possible, I regret posting it now), so I was thinking opener has a maximum of 14 HCP or a bad 15?
Trying to reach 3NT at MP's with a known shortness in spades and a minimum of HP seems awfull agressive. 5♦ is out too, so that leaves 4♥. If responder bids 3♦, does that imply 5♥? I think not and if opener chooses to bid 3♥ over 3♦ with three card support, he is risking to play on a 4-3 fit.

Hi,

depending on your requirements, a 2D bid could
still include 15HCP, i.e. 3NT may still be an (remote)
option. Also important is, that in the given seq.
2D showed a 6 carder, i.e. you have a fit.

I would say, that you can either bid 3D a courtesy
raise (a raise, which usally does not accomplish anything),
bid 2NT or pass, you choose to pass, which is fine, playing
MP you dont need to reach every close game.

If partner acceppts the invitation to game (in case you
bid 2NT or 3D) and he does hold a 3 card heart suit, he
should bid 3H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

plaur, on May 5 2007, 08:17 AM, said:

Thank you for the answers. Can you help me try to learn why responder should bid on after 2♦?

You said it yourself.

Quote

I understand I have a good hand. ♦D is good now, ♣AK are good, nice J109 combo in ♥.

If I had to assign a value to the diamond queen after 1♦ then 2♦, I would say about 3.25 points. Just think, partner has AKxxxx of diamonds and with it ace of spades, or QJx Qx majors. Game. And the nice thing about the hearts is it gives you a stopper with a minimum of high card points.

One other point is the opponents have 8 to 10 spades, so if partner is minimum it won't be disasterous to keep them out with their spade fit and a little less than half the deck.

[jtfanclub]

plaur, on May 5 2007, 08:17 AM, said:

Thank you for the answers. Can you help me try to learn why responder should bid on after 2♦?
I understand I have a good hand.

To a crazy person like me, while your hand being good is certainly a factor, that T7 of spades is a bigger factor.

Unless you're playing something a little strange, you know they have an 8+ card spade fit. If your partner is really minimal, it seems like they're unlikely to let you have it at 2♦, while you can shut them out with a 3♦ call. If the auction goes:

1♦ (P) 1♥ (P)
2♦ (P) P (X or 2♠)

they're going to figure out if they should bid over 3♦ or not, and make the correct call.

So this looks lose-lose to me. If partner is minimum, you're letting them get into the auction too cheaply. If your partner isn't minimum, you just missed game. If you had

KT7
JT93
Q7
A983

Same hcp, same fit, but I'd be more tempted to pass 2♦.

But that's just me.