[glen]

The Douche Club system document was updated a few days ago:

Douche Club pdf

This is a system by Mark Abraham, Griff Ware and Daniel Geromboux.

Among things to look at, check out section 5.6, the Witch's 2♣.

[awm]

At some point I was considering different Gazilli variants and looked at something like "Witch's 2♣" and eventually rejected it. The issue hasn't been resolved in the system notes mentioned here. Basically this is the problem:

One of the nice things about Gazilli is the auction 1♠-1NT-2♣-2♠ (for example). The 2♣ rebid is artificial, showing either a type of minimum opening or one of several types of strong opening. The 2♠ bid by responder shows a very bad hand, not capable of forcing game opposite the strong option and suggesting something about responder's shape (2♦ is bid on hands that force game opposite the strong option). The good thing about Gazilli is that opener can pass responder's 2♠ even with a minimum strong hand, stopping in a low and very reasonable contract.

The trouble with the "Witch's 2♣" where the minimum opening hand is the one-suiter is that this doesn't work so well. Suppose responder has a lousy hand with 1-4-4-4 or 1-4-(3-5) after 1♠-1NT-2♣. This is actually pretty common. Now if opener has a minimum with 6+♠, it is really imperative to get to 2♠. This is the normal spot in the 6-1 fit, and anything higher is quite risky on what could be less than half the values in the deck. The "Witch 2♣" notes indicate that responder is supposed to bid beyond 2♠ on this hand, which seems awful. On the other hand, if opener has a strong opening bid that doesn't include 6+♠, then playing 2♠ on a 5-1 seems awful. So if responder were expected to bid 2♠ on the patterns given, opener could not reasonably pass with a minimum strong option...

Currently I play "regular" Gazilli over 1♥-1NT and 1♥-1♠, where the 2♣ rebid is either clubs or strong. Over 1♠-1NT I use 2♣ to show either hearts or a strong hand, and use 2♥ as transfer to spades and 2♠ as spades and clubs. This seems to work better in a number of instances than the other Gazilli-type approaches I've seen.

[glen]

awm, on Apr 26 2007, 02:09 PM, said:

Over 1♠-1NT I use 2♣ to show either hearts or a strong hand...

This is a good approach - I've used this in the recent Mazzilli - see:

6MIA, TIM and Mazzilli PDF

I like your 1♠-1NT--2♥ as a transfer.

[jdonn]

awm, on Apr 26 2007, 02:09 PM, said:

Over 1♠-1NT I use 2♣ to show either hearts or a strong hand, and use 2♥ as transfer to spades and 2♠ as spades and clubs.

Admittedly just at a glance, why not play 2♥ as spades and clubs, and 2♠ as natural? Aside from having fewer artificial bids to remember (oh sorry I forgot, this is obviously not an issue ), it seems like it's more important to let responder pass on a weak hand with hearts when opener has a club rebid than a single suit. Perhaps it would also give opener a chance to take a third bid with spades and clubs to show some extra, allowing you to remove that hand type from whereever else you have it now. Or you could just split up the ranges more tightly, whatever.

[awm]

Here's the structure I use now over 1♠-1NT:

2♣ = 11-16 with ♠+♥, or 17+ with ♠ and a side 4-card suit, or GF one-suiter
2♦ = 11-16 with ♠+♦, but not a pure 6-4 or 5-5 with 14-16
2♥ = 11-18 with 6+♠; if maximum then not suited for a 3♠ jump
2♠ = 11-16 with ♠+♣, but not a pure 6-4 or 5-5 with 14-16
2NT = Game Forcing hand with 5♠ and a 5-card side suit
3♣,3♦,3♥ = a pure 5-5 with 14-16 (not forcing)
3♠ = 17-18 with a strong spade suit, not quite forcing to game

After 1♠-1NT-2♥-2♠...

Pass = normal 11-14
2NT = equivalent to a 3♠ jump rebid but a poor suit; like 15-17 high
3♣,3♦,3♥ = pure 6-4, 14-16 hcp (extras) not forcing
3♠ = extras and good spades, but weaker than the direct 3♠ bid

The nice things about this structure as opposed to Josh Donn's alternative include:

-- Allows a number of different ways to show one-suited hands with moderate extras. This is potentially important, because strong two-suiters almost invariably have a fair number of values in the suits, whereas it is quite possible that a one-suiter would have a lot of values outside the suit.
-- Removes GF 5-5 hands from the 2♣ rebid, which makes for easier resolution of auctions starting 1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦-3x.
-- Lets us show moderate-extras 6-4 and still get out in the second suit at the 3-level.

Note that responder passing the artificial 2♥ rebid, while possible and "allowed" is not really frequent or a major reason for adopting these structures.

After 1♠-1NT-2♣:

2♦ = game values opposite 17+ option
2♥/2♠ = preference opposite ♠+♥ hand; at most 7 hcp
2NT = weak hand with 5-5 or better minors (with 5-4 will have 2♠ or 3♥ for preference)
3m = weak hand with 6+ minor, normally 1-2 or fewer in majors

After 1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦:

2♥ = min with majors
2♠ = 17+ with majors (this cheap rebid is also nice, and works because most one-suiters have been removed from the 2♣ rebid)
2NT = GF natural, can include a weak 6-card spade suit with 19 hcp or the like
3m = natural, 5-4 or 6-4 (never 5-5) and 17+
3♠ = GF one suiter with good spades

[jdonn]

Of the 3 points you listed, the second and third seem totally unrelated to what I suggested (just reversing your 2♥ and 2♠ bid). Your first seems to be essentially arguing that it would be more useful to have a third bid available on a single suited hand than a two suited hand. I was essentially arguing the opposite, which I still believe is true. Anyway no big deal, there is probably little to choose between them.

[awm]

Let me try to clarify a bit....

Basically there are three types of hands I would like to remove from the 2♦ rebid. The goal is to eliminate the need for "false preference" auctions on 2-4 in spades and diamonds (thus reaching better partials) and avoid missing game when responder passes with 1-4 in spades and diamonds opposite a max. These hands are: (1) Almost GF hands, like 17-18 high. (2) Concentrated 5-5 hands with a little extra. (3) Concentrated 6-4 hands with a little extra. The first hand type will rebid the Gazilli 2♣. We need to have calls available for the other two.

In one standard version of Gazilli, the concentrated 5-5 hand bids 3♦ (like a precision jump). The concentrated 6-4 rebids 2NT (showing any concentrated 6-4 with a little extra). This is reasonable, but there are two basic problems with this approach. First, the 2♣ rebid includes both strong "almost balanced" hands and strong "very two-suited hands." Both these hand types will be rebidding 3m after 1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦. It can be hard to distinguish the really shapely strong hands that offer good play for a minor suit slam from the fairly flat 5-1-4-3 hands that really just want to force game on values (and are happy to play 3NT). It's nice to remove one of these hands from 2♣. The other issue is that the hand with specifically 6♠ and 4♣ and a bit extra bids as 1♠-1NT-2NT, and now 3♣ is a relay for the second suit and you end up not being able to play in exactly 3♣ when you want to.

Using 2♥ as "transfer to spades" lets you play in either 3m contract when opener has extras, and also frees the 2NT rebid to show a really big 5-5. In addition, there is an occasional problem when responder has long hearts and opener bids and rebids spades, and you have an auction like 1♠-1NT-3♠ where responder has to decide whether to play 4♠, 4♥, or 3NT. In principle responder can introducce hearts in the auction 1♠-1NT-2♥-3♥.

While having a "second bid" available after showing a two-suiter is certainly useful, the issue is that no such bid will be available to opener after 1♠-1NT-2♦ (natural). This creates an annoying asymmetry between the minors, which will also effect the meanings of bids like 1♠-1NT-3♣ and 1♠-1NT-3♦ (with clubs you could have made the artificial club bid and then bid 3♣ to show some hand type, but with diamonds you couldn't).

[jmc]

awm, you play this in a non-2/1 system, a 2/1 game force unless suit rebid system, or just a version of sayc?

jmc

[marcD]

There are many versions of Gazzilli. However, it seems there is a way to show both strong 5-5 hands (GF) and 5431 over 1S-1NT-2C-2D : use 2H to show a GF hand with 5+ and direct 3x to show 5-5. I play Gazzilli with semi forcing NT (and if 5H then 5-9) so may be the issue is slighly different.

[Elianna]

jmc, on Apr 26 2007, 08:40 PM, said:

awm, you play this in a non-2/1 system, a 2/1 game force unless suit rebid system, or just a version of sayc?

jmc

version of SA.

Josh said:

Aside from having fewer artificial bids to remember

Even I can actually remember this part. It's another part of our system that I feel that I forget sometimes.