[cherdano]

Codo, on Apr 11 2007, 03:21 AM, said:

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it seems RKC Black Wood doesn't work here as South can't show trump Q with only one key card and North can's afford to ask ♣Q at 5 level after RKC. Should this point be considered by South before he makes his call vs 3♥?

This should be considered while talking about the system in general. The easiest ways to handle this problem is to bid RCKB with 4 of the agreed minor ( 4 Club here) or with kickback (4 Diamond here). This safes a lot of badly needed room for your responses for quite a small price.

Well, many (me included) doubt that the price is small. You get to ask your keycards, but you lose a lot of room for exploring strain/cuebidding etc.

[jdonn]

Codo, on Apr 11 2007, 04:21 AM, said:

Quote

it seems RKC Black Wood doesn't work here as South can't show trump Q with only one key card and North can's afford to ask ♣Q at 5 level after RKC. Should this point be considered by South before he makes his call vs 3♥?

This should be considered while talking about the system in general. The easiest ways to handle this problem is to bid RCKB with 4 of the agreed minor ( 4 Club here) or with kickback (4 Diamond here). This safes a lot of badly needed room for your responses for quite a small price.

The price is huge. This convention leads to more misunderstandings than any other convention in the universe. If you are going to play it, spend a long time discussing first

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Apr 11 2007, 04:41 PM, said:

The price is huge. This convention leads to more misunderstandings than any other convention in the universe. If you are going to play it, spend a long time discussing first

Apart from Ghestem, that is.

But I certainly refuse to play virtually any form of Kickback and I don't miss it.

[Codo]

In this hand, just as an example, you have a fit and already a game forcing.
What more place exactly do you need for

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a lot of room for exploring strain/cuebidding etc.

.
You loose exactly one bid ( 4 Club or 4 Diamond) and you win exactly one bid 4 NT, so sorry, your comment is pointless.

And:

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The price is huge. This convention leads to more misunderstandings than any other convention in the universe. If you are going to play it, spend a long time discussing first 

I personally don´t play kickback in non competetive auctions, but I don´t see, why this should be too difficult. Te only real problem you need to discuss is, when both pds bid their touching suits, like 1 ♦ 1 ♥ 3 ♦ 3 ♥ 4 ♥ and what to do in competetive situations.
But don´t you remember your ongoing discussions with your pd in which situations 4 NT was plain KC, a two suiter, inviting, for the minors, take out, or RCKB? OF course you can handle all these different situations, but this needed discussions too, so I don´t buy that kickback is too difficult for you.

[jdonn]

If all you can do is call other peoples' posts pointless then you will convince no one of anything. And Cherdano made an excellent point. You need plenty more information before galloping off toward slam than knowing you have a fit and a game force. That is why you don't often see auctions like 1♥ p 2NT(raise) p 4NT. If you play kickback, you lose the room to do any cuebidding on the four level when the suit is a minor (unless you want to bypass the keycard ask altogether), and so you will often be taking the risk of being off AK of a suit. If you believe the ability to have a cheaper keycard is worth that risk then good for you, but the alternative view isn't pointless simply because you disagree with it.

Pardon me for not really caring whether you "buy it" when you admit that you don't play the convention. There are many other situations in which it is unclear how the bid is meant, or best used.

1♦ p 1♥ p 3♦ p ?
Is 4♥ keycard? If you don't believe that is a misunderstanding waiting to happen then you are being naive. Is 4♦ keycard? Then you lose the chance for any intelligent exploration since responder can't simply make a forcing diamond raise, he has to just decide we are bidding keycard or we aren't.

How about 1♦ (1♥) DBL (2♥) 3♣ (3♥) ? Now what? Is 4♦ keycard for clubs and you can't raise diamonds? Is 4♣ keycard for clubs and you can't raise clubs? Do you think both partners will be on the same page in any case? It's not impossible to answer these questions but it's very very difficult. A partnership that wants to play this convention really has to put the work in, that's what I was saying.

[Codo]

Hi JD,

1. We agree that you need to discuss all sequences where you and your pd bid touching suits and some more. Funnily this is true for any convention you play.
I guess that you spend hours in deciding whether 2 NT from pd was Lebensohl, Scrambling, good/bad, inviting or even natural in this or that situation. Yes, you need to put work in it.

2. We agree that you need to discuss the meaning of kickback bids in competetive auctions.

3. We agree that you don´t often see a bidding like 1 ♥ 2 NT 4 NT. Okay, we don´t see bidding like 1 ♥ 2 NT 4 ♠ often either, so this is pointless.
The valid point of Cherdanos post was that you need place for cuebids (or pattern out or..) and that kickback will reduce the space you have. This is obviously true.
We just disagree of how much value this space is. And I belive that the ability to cue any single suit once is enough in most hands. The given hand is one clear example for this theory. You have enough space below 4 of a minor to show all cuebids.

4.There are other possibilities after inverted minor sequences f.e. where it works even better. And like with regular RCKB, when you decide, that you need more rounds of cuebidding instead of ace asking, fine, you are allowed to do so.

[Fluffy]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 11 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 11 2007, 04:41 PM, said:

The price is huge. This convention leads to more misunderstandings than any other convention in the universe. If you are going to play it, spend a long time discussing first

Apart from Ghestem, that is.

But I certainly refuse to play virtually any form of Kickback and I don't miss it.

fully agree on everything