[the hog]

When you open with 2C you have already taken up a bit of bidding room. If you now jump to 3D, you take up more room and it is very difficult to find out whether this was done on "5 rags and one and half trick?" or on a decent D suit. You are pre empting yourself in the bidding. Therefore it is better to make the jump to 3m show a good suit, probably only single suited, so opener can judge what to do in an already cramped auction.

[1eyedjack]

Gerben42, on Apr 12 2007, 10:06 AM, said:

Silly question: If you play Acol 2s isn't this 4-loser hand a typical hand for it?

By the same token, *IF* that hand is typical of an opening strong 2 in H, what sort of hand are you describing if you open 2C and rebid H twice?

My simplistic reasoning was that both sequences show similar hand types separated by strength.

---

is also a "4-loser hand" and yet one with rather less potential than the one that I held.

Anyway, that was my reasoning, right or wrong.

[zasanya]

The_Hog, on Apr 12 2007, 04:31 AM, said:

When you open with 2C you have already taken up a bit of bidding room. If you now jump to 3D, you take up more room and it is very difficult to find out whether this was done on "5 rags and one and half trick?" or on a decent D suit. You are pre empting yourself in the bidding. Therefore it is better to make the jump  to 3m show a good suit, probably only single suited, so opener can judge what to do in an already cramped auction.

2♣ is usually a)single suiter major with 8 & 1/2 tricks b)single suiter minor with 9 1/2 & tricks c)23 + balanced.d)Very Strong 2 suiter
Your contribution of 1 & 1/2 tricks informs the opener that 4 level contracts are virtually safe and 5 level contracts will have good play.This should help them to find the best spot.For example in the given hand after 3♦ opener immediately knows slam will be an excellent contract and can look for a grand.
The problem hands will be openers balanced 23-24 or strong 2 suiters.The problem can be resolved if the agreement is that after responder shows a second suit openers 4 nt is to play and not rkcb.
eg 2♣-3♦-3NT-4♠-4NT is to play.
I would really like to a see a hand where 3♦ response would be catastrophic.

[Free]

zasanya, on Apr 12 2007, 11:13 AM, said:

I would really like to a see a hand where 3♦ response would be catastrophic.

scroll up

[P_Marlowe]

zasanya, on Apr 12 2007, 04:16 AM, said:

Many experts have strongly disagreed with 3♦.What is wrong with 3♦ if opener knows it can be made with 5 rags and one and half trick?How can it lead to a bad result?
Will some "anti 3♦' poster elaborate?

Hi,

the problem is space.
The 2C opener can hold various hand types,
and some off them need two bids to get
described.

Ask yourself, how high you end up after
opener has made those two bids.

If responder introdues a suit, he should be willing
to play the suit oppossite xxx.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[zasanya]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 05:32 AM, said:

zasanya, on Apr 12 2007, 04:16 AM, said:

Many experts have strongly disagreed with 3♦.What is wrong with 3♦ if opener knows it can be made with 5 rags and one and half trick?How can it lead to a bad result?
Will some "anti 3♦' poster elaborate?

Hi,

the problem is space.
The 2C opener can hold various hand types,
and some off them need two bids to get
described.

Ask yourself, how high you end up after
opener has made those two bids.

If responder introdues a suit, he should be willing
to play the suit oppossite xxx.

With kind regards
Marlowe

I still do not see the danger. Suppose Opener has ♥ and ♣ strong 2 suiter which is opened as 2♣.Now bidding will go 2♣-3♦-3♥-3♠-
4♣-4NT to play unless opener has more strength than shown till then..Worst scenario is 2 suiter with ♣ longer than ♥.Bidding goes 2♣-3♦-4♣-4♠-5♥-5NT to play unless opener has extra strength;admittedly high but will have play.
Free has presumably advised to refer to hand given by 1eyedjack.With that hand if the hand is opened 2♣ the bidding would procede 2♣-3♦-4♥-to play unless responder has more strength than shown till then.
Moreover how does 2♣-2♦-improve on the above bidding?Bidding will presumably go 2♣-2♦-3♣ and now what does responder do?Cant bid 3♦ so she bids 3NT? and what does she bid after 4♥?Opener doesnt know about the strenghth of responder so will they not end up in 5 level?5 ♣ may be better than 5NT can we be certain about it?Will they be able to reach 6/7 ♣?
Would really like to learn more.

[P_Marlowe]

zasanya, on Apr 12 2007, 08:41 AM, said:

<snip>
I still do not see the danger. Suppose Opener has ♥ and ♣ strong 2 suiter which is opened as 2♣.Now bidding will go 2♣-3♦-3♥-3♠-
4♣-4NT-...<snip>

Some question to answer:
Is 4Cl natural, after our side did bid 3 other
suits natural, or is it a cue bid?
Does 3S promise a 4 card suit or just values?
Is 4NT really to play or some kind of ace asking?

You can answer those questions, but be certain
that you did not forget a important class of hands.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: And of course you still did not clarify if opener /
responder are min / max, ... you need the space to
answer those question, unless you go 100% artificial,
which is always an option.

[thebiker]

I would like to make two points

(a) I was always taught (via the Sharples brothers Englands leading bidding theorists in the fifties - sixties - IMHO) that when one made a positive response to a 2C bid, the suit need only be a four carder, but ought to have a contain a minimum of 3 points - so I would say that the direct responses if making positive should be 2S not the space consuming 3D bid without points in diamonds.

( The Sharples played that one could make a positive on

A One & half QT's ie A + K, or equilivalent

B 8 Points including 1A or 2K's

C A major suit playable for 5 Tricks with the odds opposite Ax or Kx
ie KQ109xx or KJ10xxx, or AQ109xx etc. The suit had to contain an A or K

If a positive type A or B was made, the bidding could not stop below the level of 4NT. Playing this way it would not be possible opposite a genuine Acol 2C bid
to stop in 4H with the responding hand.
(I don't think the hand in question is an Acol 2C, if Acol Two's are available)

I recall reading somewhere in the distant past that the late Jeremy Flint espoused a similar philosophy whereby after a positive, the partnership were committed to 4NT or higher.


regard

Brian Keable
(alias the biker) Ancient Acol player

[Fluffy]

missfitting 29 HCP is ok to stay at the 4 level. Oh wait, you said KQJ missing on my splinter? then probably a splinter will solve this situation.

1♥-1♠
2NT-3NT
4♦.......

[zasanya]

P_Marlowe, on Apr 12 2007, 09:15 AM, said:

zasanya, on Apr 12 2007, 08:41 AM, said:

<snip>
I still do not see the danger. Suppose Opener has ♥ and ♣ strong 2 suiter which is opened as 2♣.Now bidding will go 2♣-3♦-3♥-3♠-
4♣-4NT-...<snip>

Some question to answer:
Is 4Cl natural, after our side did bid 3 other
suits natural, or is it a cue bid?
Does 3S promise a 4 card suit or just values?
Is 4NT really to play or some kind of ace asking?

You can answer those questions, but be certain
that you did not forget a important class of hands.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: And of course you still did not clarify if opener /
responder are min / max, ... you need the space to
answer those question, unless you go 100% artificial,
which is always an option.

4♣ is natural because trump suit is not agreed.If Opener has support for ♠ she can bid 4 nt which must be rkcb since its a jump.If she has support for ♦ then 4♦ sets trump.It would be nice if it can be minorwood but even if it is not responder can sign off with 5 ♦ when the ♦ are 5 rags.
3♠ is second suit.With 5-3-3-2 responder bids 3 nt or 4♥.
4NT is to play if no fit has beed found till then.
I appreciate your point about space (which is why IMO precision is a far superior system in uncontested auctions ) but i have not been able to construct reasonable hands where 3♦ response leads to a bad contract.

[Apollo81]

The_Hog, on Apr 12 2007, 05:31 AM, said:

When you open with 2C you have already taken up a bit of bidding room. If you now jump to 3D, you take up more room and it is very difficult to find out whether this was done on "5 rags and one and half trick?" or on a decent D suit. You are pre empting yourself in the bidding. Therefore it is better to make the jump to 3m show a good suit, probably only single suited, so opener can judge what to do in an already cramped auction.

agree, at least for the 3♦ bid