[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Apr 7 2007, 04:36 PM, said:

jdonn,

I'm not sure why you are mis-describing what I have proposed and then knocking down that misdescription with an argument that does cover what I actually wrote.

You will notice that I never stated "problem solved!" Rather, I noted that I was comfortable with the unfortunate realities created by the 2♥ double negative.  Being comfortable strongly implies, or was meant to imply, and could be contextually understyood to mean, that the evils for me are less problematic than the benefits.

That statement was obviously paraphrasing (not quoting - important distinction) regarding your idea of making the 1♥ opening bid heavier and that it seemed you were ignorring the potential avalanche of changes in system this would lead to. You called this idea "the solution". Don't hide from your own posts.

"To me, the solution for the problem that jdonn notes is this potentially bulky 1♥ opening." Sorry, I didn't realize that you having found the "solution for the problem" didn't mean the problem was solved. My bad.

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What I noted was that there is something between 2♣-P-2♥-P-P-P and 2♣-P-2♥-P-3♥ that must be opened 1♥.  I also gave the most common specific case, namely the 5-5 player with hearts an a minor.  With strong enough values, and two-suited,m you could bid 2♣...3♥...4minor.  With a minimum 2♣ opening, you could probably pass 2♥ with six hearts.  However, with insufficient values to force game opposite a 2♥ response, but too strong to pass 2♥, you would open 1♥.

I barely even know where to start. First of all what is this talk about passing 2♥ when you know nothing about partner's shape? Do you enjoy playing your 11 card fit at the 2 level? Or what if partner is 7132 opposite your 36 in the majors? And what is this nonexistant range of hands that are better than a minimum 2♣ opener but not good enough to chance forcing to game opposite a bust? Minimum 2♣ openers with a suit are within a trick of game, there is no inbetween.

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This does not mean that every hand must be bid after a 1♥ opening, as you suggest.  Rather, the "big hand problem" is one where passing is a bad idea when Responder has a fit.  Thus, Responder will tend to raise 1♥ with lesser values than usually are expected.  If you play a constructive raise approach, as I do, then these weak raises are handled via a forcing 1NT.  So, whereas you might otherwise pass 1♥ with something like xxx-Qxx-Jx-xxxxx, you might now feel obligated to bid a forcing 1NT and then bid 2♥, showing a bust raise.  You would not feel obligated to make a call that yields a 17-count opposite a 2-count "without even a fit" because that would be stupid.

1) You said a common hand that opens 1♥ even though it's good enough for 2♣ is 5-5 in hearts and a minor. So this fit you speak of CAN BE IN THE MINOR TOO. How can partner risk passing your 1♥ opening with a 2155 yarbrough when you can be 5-5 in hearts and a minor with some 24 count? Responder has two choices if you are opening 1♥ this way. You can pass the 1♥ opening on very light hands that can easily have games and slams, or you can bid with nothing and make all later parts of these auctions unbearable for both players (see my last post).
2) Responding 1NT then bidding 2♥ doesn't "show" a bust raise, though you may play it can be one. Have you ever been 3253 with a nine count and had partner rebid 2♣? How does partner know you have virtually nothing when he is worth a third bid if you only had full values?

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Remember that the bulky 1♥ hand is one that is unbiddable, and Responder will be aggressive when he can cater well to that.  In other words, Responder will not pass a 1♥ opening if he would have liked an auction that started 2♣-P-2♥-P-2♥, insufficient bid accepted.

Will he pass with Kxxx x xxxx xxxx? Hope you don't have Ax AKJxx AKJxx x (or if you don't think that is good enough for 2♣ sans your ideas about the 1♥ opening, start adding queens until it is).

[helene_t]

Most of Ken's ideas sound almost standard to me.

Part of the reason why a 1♥ opening can be heavier that a 1♠ opening is that someone is likely to bid spades if you have an unbalanced hand with hearts. No guarantee of course, but bidding is an inexact science. Personally, I'm not too worried about partner having a monster hand when he opens 1♥. Playing Precision, I do cater for a hand that may reavaluate to much more than 15 HCPs, but playing standard, I don't. I might be wrong or I might be playing too much MPs and too little IMPs

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that "solution" means "100% elimination of the problem" in this context.

[kenrexford]

jdonn:

OK, let's try this again. Ill write more slowly this time.

I'm sure that you would agree that the most common reason for not opening 2♣ is an inability to fully describe the hand within the space alotted, right? A typical example is the minor two-suiter. Hence, 1♦...3♣ is a start that may be rather meaty.

I'm sure that you will also agree that, although many play a 2♣ opener as showing something like "8.5+ tricks," not all hands with "8.5+ tricks" are opened 2♣. In fact, I'll bet that you have opened a non-forcing one-bid with nine tricks, and probably even with 10 tricks, right?

What hands are these, where a bulky one-bid is opened? Light HCP's (relatively speaking) with great LTC from shape, unbiddable because of the two-suiter nature of the hand.

Thus, whereas a heart-focused hand (like 6322) might be opened 2♣ somewhat light as to LTC but strong as to HCP, a lighter HCP hand with greater LTC might not be opened 2♣ because of its fit-dependence, because of practicality reasons (describing the shape), and the like.

The minor two-suiter is opened 1♦ (or 1♣) on bulky values because of these concerns. Simply speaking, you cannot show your hand below 3NT. When 2♥ is a double negative, that call also preempts heart-minor hands in the same way. So, logically you will now need to open 1♥ on these hands more often.

When you open 1♥, partner will be expected to keep the auction alive with heart support and slightly weaker values. When the auction goes 1♥-P-1NT-P-2♣-P-2♥, no one cares whether the heart bid shows three or shows two, as the auction is usually over and Opener does not have the giant hand, especially if you play something like Bart. The relevance is when Opener forces game (jump shift), in which case Responder leaps to 4♥ to end all thoughts of greater things.

When Responder has 2155 pattern, and Opener might have a heart-minor two-suiter that is a monster, the auction might pass out. That would be sad, and quite unusual. The opponents often have already kept or will keep this auction alive on the basis of their long spade suit when Opener has the powerhhouse shape. If not, this is admittedly a cost to the 2♥ double negative.

A quick point on the pass of the 2♥ double negative. One could easily decide that this is not allowed. That would be fair, in which case opening 2♣ with hearts would mean that 2♣ is effectively GF. Thus, Opener will have another pattern with which he opens 1♥. For me, I'd prefer to be able to open 2♣ with some hands that would pass 2♥. The risk of hitting some hands that you describe is minimal. The seven-spades hand won't occur, as Responder would jump to 3♠ after 2♣. I also have a method for distinguishing one-suited minors, weak or strong, that can help here. If I catch five-card support, no Ace or King, not two queens, but just enough (maybe one well-placed Queen and a useful stiff) to make game, this is also a cost to the pass.

No one is denying that the 2♥ double negative causes problems. That would be silliness. By "the solution," I have meant that, since 2♣-P-2♥-P-3♥ is forcing, and hence GF, you cannot open 2♣ with some heart-based hands. The "solution" of opening 1♥ is not necessarily a happy solution, any more than bankruptcy might be the "solution" for financial disaster. "Problem solved!" implies that I just love being able to open 1♥ with these bulky hands. Rather, it is a necessary evil that many do not think of. Many simply open 2♣ like they always did, hear 2♥ double negative, and then grunt, fret, worry. Maybe they pass and score up 170. Maybe they bid 3♥ and end up in some disaster.

Finally, if the auction does go 1♥-P-1NT-P-2♦-P-2♥-P-bid, because Opener has a hand worthy of a third bid in this auction, Opener will often be protected by that third heart and useful features when Responder happens to be a tad light.

One postofinally observation. One of your prior posts discussed the problem of the 25 point hand. Thus is a mirage. You cannot create a 25-count 5-5 hand that cannot force game. It is the light HCP strong shape hand that is the problem.