[cnszsun]

1D-P-2C-2H

After we start a game forcing 2 over 1 sequence, opponent won't keep silent and bid a natural suit below game level.
Now you have two extra bids, double and pass. What's best to define double and pass.
I know the idea of garozzo 2/3 doubles, can it be applied here?
I have never thought of this, but it appeared the other day at the table. I want to know if anybody have some agreements.

[Apollo81]

Jlall, on Mar 26 2007, 02:35 AM, said:

PENALTY

yeah

[Gerben42]

Pass is a waiting bid, allowing partner to double for penalty. Other bids should be "clear". Now the real question is what is 2NT here?

[pclayton]

Right - double is penalty. Pass shows a 2N rebid inviting pard to whack with a fragment.

Ive never discussed this, but I think 2N should g/b to show a minimim raise (or rebid) while 3x is a real hand.

[kgr]

Jlall, on Mar 26 2007, 08:35 AM, said:

PENALTY

In SAYC pass should also be forcing?
But it feels like most of us play DBL as take-out?
Why is this?
PS: this is a serious question. No hard feeling against your penalty DBL

[goobers]

Takeout to where? 3 suits bid

[awm]

My preference is double for takeout and pass forcing, strongly suggesting penalties.

There are a lot of reasons I believe this treatment is superior to direct penalty doubles, most arising from the fact that you gain sequences from the ability to pass and then bid (playing double as penalty, you can also pass and then bid, but partner will often not double when you start with the pass, causing you to lose space).

However, the biggest advantage is that this removes ambiguity. No matter how many sequences you discuss, there will be a few where it is not clear whether pass is forcing. Perhaps this sequence is obvious (although it's less obvious if 2♣ is not always GF) but an auction like 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♠ or 1♦-1♠-2♣-3♠ is likely to be less clear. Even if you've discussed those too, it's likely there will exist ambiguous sequences. By not changing the meaning of pass/double based on whether an auction is forcing, a lot of misunderstandings can be avoided.

Of course, I'm well aware that the standard agreement is "double is penalty if pass would be forcing" and that my suggestions are non-standard in this auction. Note that any hand where partner would sit for a "penalty double" is one where partner should double after my forcing pass, so I'm not substantially "losing opportunities to penalize."

[gwnn]

In SAYC 2/1 is forcing to 2NT so if intervention is below 2NT (like the present example 1♥-(p)-2♣-(2♥)) then X is still for penalties.

[helene_t]

Agree with Adam. There are a few situiations in which it might make sense to agree explicitly to play penalty doubles (some would put 1NT-(2M)-x on the list) but the default is that low-level doubles are t/o. I see no reason why this situation should be an exception.

[Codo]

I strongly prefer take out.

You loose nothing with this approach compared to penalty doubles but you win some additional bidding sequences and the ability to find your 4-4 Heart fit much easier after
1 Diamond (pass) 2 Club (2 Spade).

[inquiry]

I generally play pass as weakish balanced, and double as penalty. I do in fact prefer 2NT here to be good bad to seperate good hands (rebid at three level) from unbalanced not so good hands (going through 2NT). The problem with good bad 2NT is, however, you wrongside potential 3NT contracts if you lack a stopper in their suit.

There is reason to think a 2/3 double might be useful here. Rather than passing with these hands (2/3 in their suit) you double. If you have a penalty double, a pass will get them, and if you bid your partner will know your legnth. Anyone actually play 2/3 doubles here to see how they work out?

I use 2/3 doubles on 1M - (P) - 2C - (bid) by opener, but my 2♣ is artificial and can include three type of hands. The 2/3 double has been effective on these hands so I suspect if might be on the given auction as well. I do not currently play 2/3 doubles after 1M - (P) - 2D - (bid) or 1S - (P) - 2H - (bid)

[han]

I have no strong preference between penalty, take-out and 2/3 doubles. I play it as penalty with Arend.

I do hate the idea of playing G/B 2NT in this auction. Showing a balanced hand with stopper and not wrongsiding the hand both seem very important.