[jillybean]

1♥ (dbl) rdbl (pass)
pass (1♠) dbl

What should the first redouble show?

What should the second double mean?

tyia
jb

[han]

First redouble: good hand, likely interested in penalizing the opponents.

The second double: Penalty.

[Mr. Dodgy]

9+ (21+Zs)
12+ (26+Zs)

[han]

Mr. Dodgy, on Mar 18 2007, 03:43 AM, said:

9+ (21+Zs)
12+ (26+Zs)

No. The second double doesn't just say something about points, how will partner know what to do?

[kenberg]

To add a little more comment about the redouble: I play that the redoubler could have three hearts but not four (2N over the double with four hearts and a good hand). Redoubling and then supporting hearts shows a good hand with three hearts. This arrangement is probably pretty standard, but not universal.

As to the second double, I imagine he contemplates playing 1SX for penalties but I don't feel real comfortable saying under what circumstances you are to pull, and when you are to leave it. IF rho passes, I think I would assume partner expects me to have at least one spade, envisioning a defense of heart to me, spade through. With two spades and a generally normal sort of hand I would certainly pass (granted the assumed pass by rho) while with 1S I would think about it. I think I would pass assuming I have decent defensive values for my opening bid. I assume partner has five spades for his double or some really good defense.

I would like to hear views on when the second double should be passed. The problem seems to be that it is when I have only one spade that the double is most likely to be followed by a pass on my right.

[P_Marlowe]

XX: Power, creates a forcing pass seq.
Should also deny primary fit for openers suit
usually +10HCP
X: Penalty

Openers pass should imply, that opener
wants to go for blood, since 1H wont be the final
contract, i.e. with an unbal. hand opener should
bid out his shape.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: You should also ask about the meaning of pass
of the XX.

[jillybean]

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ J54 ♥ A4 ♦ AQT8 ♣ J764

West North East South

 -     1♥    Dbl   RDbl
 Pass  Pass  1♠    Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


This was the hand, I was South and thought my Double was take out.

[han]

The redouble was good. I think I'd rebid 1NT, that should show more than a direct 1NT so about 11-12 HCP.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

XX was good.

I would not bid 1NT now 'without' a stopper.

A pass of (1S) is forcing after the XX so pass and let partner do something helpful.

If you play double is takeout after the (1S) bid, how do you get a penalty holding say AQ10xx ?

Regards,
Robert

[jillybean]

Robert, on Mar 18 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

If you play double is takeout after the (1S) bid, how do you get a penalty holding say  AQ10xx ?

I didnt know people played 1♠X as penalty in this sequence. Ive been playing 'all doubles below game are for take out' with a couple of exceptions but not this one.

[han]

I agree with the pass, better than my suggested 1NT.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Mar 18 2007, 03:37 PM, said:

Robert, on Mar 18 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

If you play double is takeout after the (1S) bid, how do you get a penalty holding say  AQ10xx ?

I didnt know people played 1♠X as penalty in this sequence. Ive been playing 'all doubles below game are for take out' with a couple of exceptions but not this one.

Hi,

thats fine as well, but in this case, you should
pass (forcing), which would be the bid as well,
in case you play the double as penalty.

Partner will reopen with a double in case he
is bal. or bid a suit in case he is unbal.

You dont mind defending oppossite a bal. 12-14
count (*), game is probably only 50% or maybe a little
better, but you have a fair chance to go plus,
300-500 are possible.

If partner has a spade stop, they will make 4 spade
tricks (=> 500) and if he has no spade trick, they
will make 5 (=> 300), but you dont have game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

(*) If he is stronger, thats is better even better.

[jillybean]

Oh this is a forcing pass, that makes sense. I will hunt for a post on FP or failing that perhaps someone could create a thread with examples of the most common FP
This is a grey area for me and a little more understanding may help with my confusion over doubles too

[twcho]

I and my regular pd will play this redouble as strength showing and the 2nd round double is for take out (same as you). Pass in the 2nd round is forcing and likely to have ♠ stack sitting over the doubler. Pd will, in most cases, balance with double.

With this hand, I will double at the 2nd turn showing a hand not suitable for supporting pd, not suitable for penalty double opp and thus with deduction, showing both minors and 10 pts+.

[goobers]

I would also like to see some forcing pass scenarios... and not ones that are obvious where in 2 bids you have established a game force.

I read that 1x - (dbl) - rdbl creates a forcing pass, and also 1x - (1NT) - dbl, but I currently play it as non-forcing, though highly suggestive of whacking their contract. Is this played as forcing in standard?

[HeartA]

Redouble is good. dbl of 1S is penalty. Pass over 1S is my choice.

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Mar 17 2007, 09:03 PM, said:

1♥ (dbl) rdbl (pass)
pass (1♠) dbl

What should the first redouble show?
What should the second double mean?

I don't play the 2nd X as penalty, or takeout. More of a 'Pakeout', or maybe 'Tenalty'.

The most important part is that this this a double denial of hearts- a singleton or a void. In addition, this shows length but not a double stop in spades (usually 4 of them), and tolerence for both minors.

The trick here is, you'd have to set 1♠ 4 tricks to beat making a game yourselves, and the odds that partner has that is pretty slim. What he's suggesting is that if you have a balanced 12-14 count, you don't have game, so take the 300. On the other hand, if you have a second suit, show it! Not only does that mean you're probably not going to set them a ton (since they have a fit), but 5 of a minor isn't out of the question.

I know I'm disagreeing with everybody (actually, I think it's just terminology) when I say it's not penalty per se, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to play it as pure penalty, especially at this vulnerability. It does suggest leaving it in, but it's not a demand.

If you had:

♠AJ54
♥ 4
♦ AQT8
♣ J764

I'd say an X stands out, though I wouldn't be brave enough to do so if partner would leave it in with 5-5 in the red suits.