[geofspa]

Scoring: IMP

2/1 agreed with little discussion
Bidding so far:
- - - 1♥
P 1♠ P 2♦
P 3♣ P ?

---

Sitting south with this hand I was was faced with this auction, I did not know what to bid ... it should be simple as 3♣ is fourth suit forcing to game.

I do not have ♣ stopped so 3NT is out ?

I do not have 3♠ ... can I support partner with 2 ? (this was my choice after agonising for hours ... well it seemed like hours! )

I do not have 6+ ♥ don't want to rebid them ?

I do not have a 5th ♦ ...

What to do here ?

[paulg]

This is a good question and not just for the B/I players - it would be worthy in the advanced/expert forum too.

I'd select between 3♦ and 3♠. 3♦ because this suit is almost as good as a 5-card suit, and 3♠ as honour doubleton is probably as good as three small.

In the end I'd plump for 3♦ as the bid leaves most room for further exploration.

Regular partnerships will have a general rule what to do on this auction when they have a poorer second suit and/or lesser support. There is a lot to be said for the lowest (sensible) bid.

Paul

[pbleighton]

I would bid 3NT, which shows my 2542 shape. 3D and 3S are reasonable lies, but why lie when you can tell the truth?

And no, the way I play I am not promising a club stopper.

Peter

[P_Marlowe]

Simple ..., bid the default bid
There are players, who bid 3D, reserving 3H to
show a 6 card suit, and there are players, who
bid 3H, reserving 3D to show 5-5.
Its a matter of partnership agreement

For what's it worth, I would bid 3H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

With cherdano I have the agreement that 3D (the cheapest call) does not necessarily show good diamonds, other calls would be descriptive, so I would have an easy 3D here. I'd probably also bid it without this agreement.

[jillybean]

I'd be forced to bid 3♥ here min hand, no extras and not showing 6♥'s,

[pclayton]

3♠ looks fine. This is usually a doubleton anyway. and even if pard opts for a 5-2 spade fit, its probably the right spot.

I'll bet this hand is easier to bid using NSI.

[the hog]

3S. Can't bid 3NT - no C stopper; can't bid 3D - not 5D; can't bid 3H - H suit not robust enough.

[whereagles]

When you "cant" bid anything, you have to choose the bid that resembles most to your hand. (Theory of the Lesser Lie.)

3♦ = shows 55
3♥ = shows 6 card or a good 5 carder
3♠ = show 3 spades
3NT = shows 1543 or 2542 and a club stop

I would say 3♥ is what comes closest to what you have.

[helene_t]

3♦ for three reasons:
- It's the cheapest bid
- It's my best suit
- Rather lie about a minor than about a major

I'm lucky that all three considerations point to the same bid.

[bid_em_up]

3♥. This is the one time it is acceptable to rebid the 5 card major, imo.

3♦ would promise 5.
3♠ should show 3.
3N would show club stop.

All of these are out. The 4SF bid asked specifically, do you have 3 spades? do you have clubs stopped? The answer to both these questions is no. Partner should be aware that 3H may be this kind of hand, and is the "lesser" of all the lies your forced to tell. The 3H bid does not guarantee a 6th heart. He can now bid 3S to show 6♠'s (if he has them), 3N themselves holding a club stop, or 4H (I would not be too afraid of playing the 5-2 ♥ fit at this point).

Unlike Phil, I would not bid 3♠ without prior discussion with partner. If partner is aware 3♠ might be only 2 card support, then it might be ok but what I really don't like about it, is that it will present the illusion that we are 3-5-4-1 and partner may head off to a spade slam under the impression that he only has one losing club.

[pclayton]

bid_em_up, on Mar 12 2007, 07:12 AM, said:

3♥. This is the one time it is acceptable to rebid the 5 card major, imo.

3♦ would promise 5.
3♠ should show 3.
3N would show club stop.

All of these are out. The 4SF bid asked specifically, do you have 3 spades? do you have clubs stopped? The answer to both these questions is no. Partner should be aware that 3H may be this kind of hand, and is the "lesser" of all the lies your forced to tell. The 3H bid does not guarantee a 6th heart. He can now bid 3S to show 6♠'s (if he has them), 3N themselves holding a club stop, or 4H (I would not be too afraid of playing the 5-2 ♥ fit at this point).

Unlike Phil, I would not bid 3♠ without prior discussion with partner. If partner is aware 3♠ might be only 2 card support, then it might be ok but what I really don't like about it, is that it will present the illusion that we are 3-5-4-1 and partner may head off to a spade slam under the impression that he only has one losing club.

To me there isn't a 'default' bid in this case - unlike 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ - where many play 2♠ as the punt; which denies 3♥, denies 6♦, and denies a ♣ stop (3♠ shows the 5-6).

This sequence is a matter of judgment and my judgment tells me a 5-2 might be preferable, because: my red suit tricks are very slow - and even if pard has a double club stop, we will need a red ace to make 3N, I have a likely ruffing value in spades, etc..

[jtfanclub]

geofspa, on Mar 11 2007, 02:50 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

2/1 agreed with little discussion
Bidding so far:
- - - 1♥
P 1♠ P 2♦
P 3♣ P ?

---

I'm not complicated enough to differentiate between 3♦ and 3♥ here.

I agree that 4th suit forcing should be asking about club stoppers and 3 spades. Both 3♦ and 3♥ are negatives, and don't say anything about the suit in question. If I had a a red ace, I'd pre-cue it here.

I guess I'd bid 3♦. It's cheaper.

[bid_em_up]

pclayton, on Mar 12 2007, 10:26 AM, said:

This sequence is a matter of judgment and my judgment tells me a 5-2 might be preferable, because: my red suit tricks are very slow - and even if pard has a double club stop, we will need a red ace to make 3N, I have a likely ruffing value in spades, etc..

I don't disagree that the 5-2 might be preferable (of course, it could be a 5-2 heart fit instead of the 5-2 spade fit, and bidding 3S prevents playing 3H, if its right).

As I thought I implied, with discussion, 3S is ok. Without discussion, partner would have every right to infer that I am 3-5-4-1 and bid accordingly. Of course, if you routinely raise 1S to 2S on this holding (and I suspect that many would), now partner is more likely to be aware that you only have 2 spades, making 3S the better choice.

However, I think in the BIL forum, 3H is the still the better choice of calls.

In other words, 3S is fine for you/your partners (I certainly respect your judgement), but I really don't consider it to be the "recommended" bid at the BIL level, for reasons already stated.

[FrancesHinden]

I have to admit I am surprised at a number of different responses here.
For anyone playing some form of standard methods, 3♠ is clearly the correct bid, and not with a "IMO" appended, either!

Let me explain why.

I believe I am correct in saying that 99.9% of good players would nowadays raise a 1S response to 1H with 3-card support and a minor suit singleton and a minimum hand. Therefore, the auction 1H - 1S - 2D denies 3-card spade support and a minimum hand.

So when the auction starts 1H - 1S - 2D - 3C opener looks at his 2542 with Kx of spades and two low clubs and says to him/herself:

- I have already shown 5 hearts
- I have already shown 4 diamonds
- I could have 0, 1 or 2 spades but I have already denied 3 spades and a minimum hand

- The biggest gap between what I have already shown and what I actually have is my Kx in spades, so that is what I must show now.

Note that if you have 3 spades and a non-minimum, you also have to bid 3S but you won't pass partner's next bid. (In the auction 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D you can bid 3S to show a good hand with 3-card support and 2S with a doubleton, but this auction is more cramped.)

In fact, if I had Kx KJ10xx QJxx Ax I would still bid 3S over 3C, not 3NT, in spite of my club stopper - because I still think the spade support is more important. However, I don't mind an approach that prefers to bid 3NT here.

Having got that off my chest, it is worth mentioning some other auctions, as the best rebid after 4SF starts to depend on less standard partnership agreements.

1D - 1H - 1S - 2C - ?
Personally, I rebid 1NT on balanced hands and raise 1H to 2S with a 4351, so for me bidding 2H over 2C would show a doubleton only.

However, some people play that the 1S rebid might be a 4342 or 4351 distribution (or even a 4333 distribtution) so for them, 2H shows 3-card support.

1S - 2C - 2D - 2H - ?
Some people don't play 4SF after a 2/1, but for those that do, some people would raise 2C to 3C with 3-card support in which case they bid 3C now on a doubleton; others require 4-card support to raise 2C to 3C in which case 3C now shows three.

[the hog]

Some posters recommend 3H. That bid overstates the quality of the H suit and misdescribes your hand. 3S does NOT promise a 3 card S suit playing a standard system. It is of course possible to have the agreement with partner that it shows 3 card support, but that is YOUR agreement; it is not what is commonly accepted. (Nor do I think it is sensible). See Frances' post and Phil's above.