[Fluffy]

One from Sevilla open, wich has seen Burati back, not with Lanzaroti though.

S - W - N - E
1♣-1♠-2♣-2♠
X*-ps-4♥-ps
ps-ps

---

X*: limit values or more.

[pclayton]

4♥ gets an "A" for imagination, but it seems to invite a 4-3.

It's probably illogical, but I'll let the Ken Rexfords of the world debate its merit

I'd settle on 3♠.

[the hog]

Nth can't have 4H - failure to make a sputnik X. Suggesting 3H and a possible moysian seems a little far fetched to me. I would take it as a splinter....maybe. This is a stupid bid to make though as it is too prone to disaster. (cf comments made by Fred and others in another thread about making disaster prone bids.)

[jdonn]

North made a great bid, that I wouldn't believe anyone who plays splinters at all could possibly misinterpret were it not for this thread. There are a ton of hands south could have that make slam, even this one with 2 wasted queens is on a finesse.

[kenrexford]

pclayton, on Feb 23 2007, 08:50 PM, said:

4♥ gets an "A" for imagination, but it seems to invite a 4-3.

It's probably illogical, but I'll let the Ken Rexfords of the world debate its merit

I'd settle on 3♠.

LOL

OK, I'll bite. If 4♥ is taken as an offer to play here, you've gone way over the deep end on the "could be natural" train.

[HeartA]

Jlall, on Feb 23 2007, 09:09 PM, said:

South 100 %. Passing splinters is not often a good idea.

As Phil pointed out, North's 4H could suggest 4-3 H, to play. At least 4H is ambiguous. I blame North.

[cherdano]

HeartA, on Feb 24 2007, 02:30 AM, said:

As Phil pointed out, North's 4H could suggest 4-3 H, to play. At least 4H is ambiguous. I blame North.

You can suggest a 4-3 heart fit by bidding 3♥. This already shows extras.

4♥ is a splinter, of course, and a nice way to catch up for the underbid of 2♣.

[skjaeran]

pclayton, on Feb 23 2007, 08:50 PM, said:

4♥ gets an "A" for imagination, but it seems to invite a 4-3.

It's probably illogical, but I'll let the Ken Rexfords of the world debate its merit

I'd settle on 3♠.

Imagining this to offer to play on 4-3 really is really far-fetched, IMO.
I'd just not have the imagination to even think that would be possible, when you have the option to bid 3♥ as a semi-natural bid.

4♥ is 100% splinter. Some might define it as a void, but that's not practical, I think.

South 110% to blame.

[david_c]

4-3? I'd expect North to have FOUR hearts.

For one thing, having made a weak 2♣ bid it's difficult to see how North can now bid 4♥, whatever it means, unless partner's double has significantly improved his hand. To me this suggests a double-fit.

But that's not really the point. Why should 2♣ deny holding four hearts? I realise you could make a negative double with that, but personally I would much rather raise partner if my clubs were longer and the hand was not too strong. If you think this is bad bridge (and sorry, you're not going to persuade me on this) then can you please make allowances for those whose style is different? There's no way that 4♥ can be anything other than natural unless you have an explicit agreement that 2♣ denies four hearts.

[hotShot]

Jlall, on Feb 24 2007, 04:09 AM, said:

South 100 %. Passing splinters is not often a good idea.

Could not agree more.
North could have shown a 4card♥ using dbl over 1♠. Since 2♣ seems to be a simple rise and is is setting the suit. So 4♥ is a splinter, promising a better ♣ fit and some extra controls that make the hand better than a usual maximum simple raise.

[Fluffy]

Hey!, many of you are blaming me instead of my partner, I'll get upset

[SoTired]

Any natural interpretation of 4H in this auction makes no sense. Therefore, it is a splinter.
South 100%

[kenrexford]

This is cracking me up.

One cannot deny, by virtue of the pass, that 4♥ is ambiguous to some people and might be taken as natural, seeking Moysian, to some people, including the partner of the person who posted this question.

That being said, an auction I remember recently. After something like 1M-P-2♣, fourth seat jumped in with a 3♦ preempt, doubled by Opener. Opener is an ACBL Gold Life Master, and therefore presumably competent enough to be a surrogate for the average, reasonable person.

His partner responded to the double by bidding 4♦.

Whatever this means, it was fclearly not natural. However, that was the final contract. Thus, proof was established that bidding their suit after their suit was doubled (for penalty) by partner could be ambiguous to partner and taken as a natural call, an offer to declare here. I mean, 3♦ could have been a psychic, or perhaps the opponents forgot to alert.

If 4♥ is ambiguous in this auction for anyone, then your arsenal of available bids must be limited to only what is written down in system notes, and I hope they are long.

[cherdano]

david_c, on Feb 24 2007, 04:36 AM, said:

4-3? I'd expect North to have FOUR hearts.

For one thing, having made a weak 2♣ bid it's difficult to see how North can now bid 4♥, whatever it means, unless partner's double has significantly improved his hand. To me this suggests a double-fit.

But that's not really the point. Why should 2♣ deny holding four hearts? I realise you could make a negative double with that, but personally I would much rather raise partner if my clubs were longer and the hand was not too strong. If you think this is bad bridge (and sorry, you're not going to persuade me on this) then can you please make allowances for those whose style is different? There's no way that 4♥ can be anything other than natural unless you have an explicit agreement that 2♣ denies four hearts.

Well, we always make assumptions on style, otherwise we can answer no bidding questions on this forum.

And I think it is very much standard that with a hand that has four hearts AND is strong enough to force to game over partner's double, you will start with a negative double. (Since the double shows extra values not any specific shape, it can't be that the double improved your hand that much.) Also, if you have 4 hearts, you can always bid 3♥. (In the auction 1S 2H 4C you haven't denied 5 clubs either, and still "everybody" would understand it as splinter.)

Nice title btw, Gonzalo!

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Feb 24 2007, 09:45 AM, said:

One cannot deny, by virtue of the pass, that 4♥ is ambiguous to some people and might be taken as natural, seeking Moysian, to some people, including the partner of the person who posted this question.

That being said, an auction I remember recently. After something like 1M-P-2♣, fourth seat jumped in with a 3♦ preempt, doubled by Opener. Opener is an ACBL Gold Life Master, and therefore presumably competent enough to be a surrogate for the average, reasonable person.

His partner responded to the double by bidding 4♦.

Whatever this means, it was clearly not natural. However, that was the final contract. Thus, proof was established that bidding their suit after their suit was doubled (for penalty) by partner could be ambiguous to partner and taken as a natural call, an offer to declare here. I mean, 3♦ could have been a psychic, or perhaps the opponents forgot to alert.

If 4♥ is ambiguous in this auction for anyone, then your arsenal of available bids must be limited to only what is written down in system notes, and I hope they are long.

Your are correct But I have to admit I would never have predicted that! The more people who say 4♥ could possibly be natural, the more shocked I get. How about an example hand for partner someone?

Your example serves to do nothing but point out the inaccuracy of masterpoints as a skill level barometer. So now whenever any human being on the planet makes any stupid interpretation of an obvious bid, we will be hearing about it?

[david_c]

OK thanks Arend, I had misinterpreted the double, thinking (for no particular reason) that it ought to promise a take-out double sort of shape. If the double just shows a "good" 3♣ bid without implying anything about the other suits then I agree that you should only ever bid 3♥ with natural hearts, not 4♥.

I'm not sure I would be 100% confident in deducing that it was a splinter though.

[pclayton]

Gonzo - who were you playing with in this event? Whats their Bridge IQ? And did you make the splinter or did your partner?

The Moysian idea is pretty far-fetched, but the fact that it DID happen means that perhaps 4♥ isn't 100% clear. Anyway, 3♠ might be just as useful anyway.

4♥ is one of those bids that you are pretty sure its a splinter, but there's a slight nagging doubt that it might not be. With most of my partners it would 100% clear be since 2♣ would categorically deny a 4 card heart suit.

By the way, just kidding Ken

[Fluffy]

I am playing with a World Master, who happens to be my father.

When this hand arised I automatically remembered recent fred's post about not getting stupid mistakes (he said bidding missunderstandings that end in unplayable contracts or something like) when the price of the tourney is suposed to be a part of your income. And sure we are playing to win, last 4 tourneys with good money prices we played together placed 1st, 1st, 1st and 2nd (after nearly a year of bad result though)

This time I was the splintering one, but this was not the real hand, I changed ♥J with ♥Q so that people don't ruin the poll arguing the double was too weak.

[kenrexford]

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2007, 07:48 PM, said:

I am playing with a Wold Master, who happens to be my father.

Is this new ranking achieved by someone who can play as well as Eddie?